# My SO and I both work remotely. What city should we move to?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [February 15, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921 "2021-02-15T03:43:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/41 "2021-02-15T22:35:48Z")
> [@beowulff](#):
>
> Yeah, if dressing for the cold was all it took, people would be moving to places like that in droves.
> Sadly, they are moving out here, instead.
“Phoenix” used to turn to desert at about 115th ave going west. Now houses run more or less back to back to 200th ave. And the houses are packed in! I guess the insufferable heat really isn’t.
> [@beowulff](#):
>
> As for “walkability,” while the entire Phoenix metro area isn’t very walkable, that’s because it’s spread out over 100 square miles.
No city is walkable by the standards that seem to be used here. Or, they all are. I can walk to restaurants and stores. But I bet people will say thy aren’t the “right” restaurants. No Korean/Ethiopian fusion restaurants within walking distance. Plenty of mexican food, of course, though [they probably aren’t “authentic”.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/authentic-mexican-food/931969)
If I walk to the bus stop, take the bus to the light rail, take the light rail downtown, I can “walk” to every major cultural even in Phoenix: Sports, symphony, movies, theater, art galleries and art walk, museums, and the zoo. Plus of course the nightlife, and the university.
Sure, it’ll take me 1 1/2 to 2 hours, as opposed to 35 minutes by car, but by god I can walk there!
And speaking of the OP, there is [an awesome Asian market](https://mekongplaza.com) right here in Mesa (not Phoenix). Biggest one I’ve been to, though probably doen’t compare to LA or SF.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/42 "2021-02-15T22:41:33Z")
> [@Gozu](#):
>
> how far is the nearest Asian supermarket to your house?
8 miles to the Mekong Market. And I could go by bus, though I’d drive.
I’m pretty sure there are “hole in the wall” mom and pop shops closer, but I can’t remember where I saw them, and can’t vouch for how good they are.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/43 "2021-02-15T22:44:02Z")
Speaking of walkability, why are there 3 delis within 200 feet of my building? Is that normal? Cafes, sure, but delicatessens?
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/44 "2021-02-15T22:44:48Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> “You know–and I’m only saying this because I care–there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing.”
You know - and I’m only saying because you may not know - attacking the poster is not a valid argument when you are not making your case.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/45 "2021-02-15T23:57:08Z")
> [@Icarus](#):
>
> I’m going to throw Atlanta into the mix. While it is “The South”, it is distinctly the opposite in many ways. It seems to be very vibrant, not expensive, and on the upward swing economically. I’m not sure about a lot of your checklist, but just thought I would mention it.
Atlanta would fit most of the requirements. The walkability can be hit or miss, depending on the neighborhood (and the most walkable neighborhoods are becoming less and less affordable). However there is a fantastic Asian scene (South as well as East Asia, though there seems to be a lack of good Thai places). And the airport is top notch.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/46 "2021-02-16T00:01:00Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#):
>
> I repeat - if you want to live within walking distance of things you want to walk to, you can do that anywhere.
Then please show the OP a few neighborhoods where you can do that in Phoenix, according to the criteria they laid out. Because you’re taking this conversation FAR too personally.
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### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/47 "2021-02-16T00:06:53Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#):
>
> You know - and I’m only saying because you may not know - attacking the poster is not a valid argument when you are not making your case.
I was attempting some levity to lighten up how personally you seem to be taking this. If that gave offense then you have my sincere apology.
The point still remains that “walkability” is not the fungible criteria that you seem to believe it to be. Phoenix, like most cities, has standard gravity and is not built on a foundation of molten lava so it is naturally possible to put one foot in front of the other; however, that one can physically walk from place to place is not in and of itself evidence of good “walkability” as the term is used by urban designers. Walkability is rather a composite index of how “friendly” a city is to pedestrians (e.g. good pedestrian design), including how much protection is provided against hazard and interference by automotive traffic, how flexible walking routes are and how accessible destinations are, how comfortable the walking environment is, how well public transport facilitates walking to and from destinations too far to reasonably walk, and how well mixed a “walkable” neighborhood is in terms of shopping, schools, public spaces, and other destinations.
You are correct that US cities are not, in general, designed for pedestrians, and even those with high walkability and rideability indices are more a matter of circumstance and community action rather than systematic pedestrian/rider design. Since the post-WWII era cities have been deliberately designed around the paradigm of separate living, working, and public spaces, e.g. suburbia and reversion of that trend is a recent phenomena, and the general culture around driving has led to pedestrian needs to be largely ignored or even deliberately removed to discourage pedestrian interference with traffic flow.
But by any measure, Phoenix is a very pedestrian-unfriendly place; outside of dedicated shopping districts, stores are invariably either in strip malls or in set-alone buildings with massive parking lots in front of entrances; schools are widely spaced requiring busing or children being dropped at school; public spaces like small parks, shelters, and set-asides are rare; cycle lanes, where they even exist, are unprotected by physical curbs or traffic reduction measures; and sidewalks are often non-continuous and are directly adjacent to busy streets rather than being dedicated pedestrian paths that are offset from roadways. This is not just a subjective evaluation; it is quantified in the walkability score cited above.
You’ve used the word “hellhole” a couple times, which is not a term I have applied, but while the climate is comfortable right now in mid-winter, public health authorities routinely issue warnings about being outdoors for weeks at a time in the summer, which is a trend that is only likely to get worse. And the city and surrounding area is a kind of ecological nightmare for the misuse of water to put green lawns and golf courses in wealthy areas, which is another reason to question the long term viability of moving to Phoenix. As you have noted, the area has been subject to a mass of immigration from surrounding states which has served to overstress the already limited natural resources, which is another issue that will only get worse. You have clearly lived there for a long time and apparently it suits you well, but it doesn’t seem like the best fit for the criteria laid out by the o.p.
Stranger
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/48 "2021-02-16T00:07:08Z")
Chandler (Dobson and Warner area).
Tempe (Anywhere around ASU).
Scottsdale (Thomas and Hayden area).
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### Author:  [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/49 "2021-02-16T00:19:42Z")
You may be too quick to dismiss California. Sacramento checks all of the boxes on your list. Very walkable, plenty of ethnic markets & restaurants, easy access to mountains & coast. $600k will buy you a decent house.
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### Author:  [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/50 "2021-02-16T00:37:04Z")
If ‘too cold’ is a major factor, the past few days have eliminated about two-thirds of the country.
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### Author:  [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/51 "2021-02-16T00:59:11Z")
> [@Railer13](#):
>
> If ‘too cold’ is a major factor, the past few days have eliminated about two-thirds of the country.
😆 I may have been a bit too harsh. I have lived in NYC for a year and didn’t find it too cold.
Seattle is perfectly fine despite bordering Canada. Chicago was fine too when I went in March.
I did think Minneapolis in January was a tad too cold for me. So that’s my limit I guess?
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/52 "2021-02-16T01:00:04Z")
> [@beowulff](#):
>
> Phoenix is definitely a “car town,” but there are few cites of this size that aren’t. Manhattan, of course, where a car is a liability. Maybe Chicago, if you have plenty of time to get where you need to be.
Manhattan, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, SF, Seattle are all nicely walkable. I’ve walked around all of them and found tons of stuff to do within easy walking distance. It’s not just Manhattan. Heck, Honolulu and Hilo were a lot more walkable than Phoenix, in my experience. Maybe I was just in a really bad part of Phoenix… 🤷🏽♀️
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### Author:  [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/53 "2021-02-16T01:20:20Z")
> [@Twoflower](#):
>
> You may be too quick to dismiss California. Sacramento checks all of the boxes on your list. Very walkable, plenty of ethnic markets & restaurants, easy access to mountains & coast. $600k will buy you a decent house.
Huh! You’re not lying. A 1500-1800 sqft 3br house in Sacramento **can** be had for 600k.
We both love California, so I’ve added it to the short list.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/54 "2021-02-16T01:30:09Z")
While it’s on the colder side (though not as cold as Minneapolis), you might look at Madison, Wisconsin. The central part of the city is very walkable, in part because of the presence of the University of Wisconsin (which also is a factor in its arts scene).
The airport is on the smaller side, but it’s served by American, United, and Delta, and flights to their midwestern hubs (Chicago, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Detroit) are fairly short.
Another factor, which may or may not be a downside to you, is the fact that it is an extremely liberal/progressive city.
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### Author:  [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/55 "2021-02-16T01:34:07Z")
My cousin moved to Sacramento for a job and really likes it.
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/56 "2021-02-16T02:48:51Z")
I really like A LOT about the Chicago area, but given the weather we’ve had the past couple of weeks, I’m not sure I’d pick Chicago over several other spots somewhat further south. My long term plans (at age 60) are that, if we stay in Chi, we’ll rent somewhere warm for Jan-Feb.
I’d look at mid-sized cities w/ great airports. For example, Cincy is WORLD’S smaller than Chicago, much milder climate, but a huge airport.
Or look at suburbs of big cities - such as Oak Park near Chicago. Very arty/walkable, w/ the big city 20 mins away.
My personal thoughts are, whatever my personal views, I’d prefer relocating to a spot where I didn’t hate the political culture. Me - not being conservative or religious - would choose not to live in a place that hits high on both of those .
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/57 "2021-02-16T03:25:52Z")
> [@Gozu](#):
>
> Decent airport
I’m curious about this requirement. Does that mean an airport with good connections to other places? Other US places? Other international places? Does it mean an airport that isn’t horrible to be stuck in? One that is easy to get to and from?
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/58 "2021-02-16T04:05:35Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> But by any measure, Phoenix is a very pedestrian-unfriendly place; outside of dedicated shopping districts, stores are invariably either in strip malls or in set-alone buildings with massive parking lots in front of entrances; schools are widely spaced requiring busing or children being dropped at school; public spaces like small parks, shelters, and set-asides are rare; cycle lanes, where they even exist, are unprotected by physical curbs or traffic reduction measures; and sidewalks are often non-continuous and are directly adjacent to busy streets rather than being dedicated pedestrian paths that are offset from roadways. This is not just a subjective evaluation; it is quantified in the walkability score cited above.
Talk about taking it too personally. That’s a nice article you wrote.
Of course, you’re still wrong.
Downtown Phoenix is totally walkable. They have sidewalks and everything! And crosswalks. You know how I am so sure? I’ve walked there a lot. It’s where all the culture is. And there are apartments right there, of course, but there are even single-family homes within walking distance. As of this year, there’s a Fry’s Supermarket right downtown, too.
You are wrong in neartly every point you made. It’s really kind of funny - just accept you’re wrong and move on. Phoenix is not what your perception says.
And I live 1/2 mile from the grade school serving my area. I see kids walking to school everyday. Aside from the American parents that insist on driving their kids one block to school, that is. The high school is 1.5 miles away. If you expect schools to be closer than that, well, I don’t know what to say.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/59 "2021-02-16T04:20:31Z")
you gotta be dry humping me. 🙂 My grandmother was the oldest native phoenixan when still alive, and my mother was born and raised there. I went to grad school in Phoenix in 1990 during the heat wave. IIRC the low exceeded 90F for 100 days straight. The airport was shut 2 days in a row because it was 121F one day and 122F the next, and the planes didn’t have enough airlift to take off. It is not unusual to be 90F in April and go up from there.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2021, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-so-and-i-both-work-remotely-what-city-should-we-move-to/932921/60 "2021-02-16T04:33:51Z")
I grew up in what has become a Sacramento suburb (Folsom was a sleepy prison town when I went to high school there), and a second University town/suburb (UC Davis).
For Sacramento, eyes wide open. A couple of drawbacks to consider:
1. California income tax
2. The weather. It gets hot in July/Aug with temperature exceeding 115F (and June and Sep can suck as well). Don’t forgot the “tule” fog that reigns in Jan and Feb, and can make seeing the sun impossible for 2 months of dreary dripping fog.
3. The traffic. Sure, you’re not that far from SF or Tahoe, if there’s no traffic. But, covid aside, there is a shitload of traffic anytime you’d probably either want to go to the Bay Area or to the Sierra Nevada’s.
I spent some time in Sacto the last couple of years before my mother passed. It’s a LOT more cosmopolitan than when grew up there. Restaurants, brewpubs, coffee bars, gay bars, etc. It has prolly doubled in population since then as well.
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