# My Sociology of Sports Textbook
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 9, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234 "2015-02-09T16:36:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/21 "2015-02-10T03:59:47Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#):
>
> Citations are a tool of dead white male privilege, the book derives all its claims from pure logic.
Absolutely! The first thing that any honest person has to acknowledge is that all prior works suffer from patriarchal bias. They can be deconstructed to rebuild them in their correct form but they can never be fully trusted as presented.
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### Author:  [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/22 "2015-02-10T05:13:26Z")
Logical thought is a tool of oppression. Any requirement that a statement make sense is just a way of keeping the downtrodden in their place.
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/23 "2015-02-10T05:51:58Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#):
>
> Logical thought is a tool of oppression. Any requirement that a statement make sense is just a way of keeping the downtrodden in their place.
I disagree with you slightly. Logic is a tool that the patriarchy uses to oppress others in some mundane but rather unimportant activities (designing and using farm implements for example). However, it is true that such activities are greatly overemphasized over the much more human ones such as art and advocacy for the victimized.
You do a disservice to the oppressed by dismissing logic completely. That is what our enemies want us to do because it makes us look foolish. I acknowledge that logic has its place as a tool in some limited, practical contexts as long as you realize that it is always secondary to emotion and ideology.
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### Author:  [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/24 "2015-02-10T08:48:11Z")
LOGIC is a tool by which old dead white males oppress and enslave the all the rest.
LOGIC is a little tweeting bird, chirping in a meadow.
LOGIC is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/25 "2015-02-10T13:58:22Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#):
>
> I like your style. I had a couple of classes in college that took just such an unfortunate turn. I realized quickly that I was going to be penalized and/or have a tough time if I fought the mindset head on so I just played the role of the most liberal and politically correct student in the class (that is about the opposite of the truth). It was kind of fun learning new phrases and presenting ridiculous (but academically supportable) arguments even if I didn’t believe a word of it.
>
> The professors ate that stuff up and I got an 'A" in both classes. The only problem with doing that is that you have to actually understand what you are talking about rather than just throwing in random phrases that you see in Mother Jones. Your cover will be blown quickly if they start asking you detailed questions about what you wrote and you can’t explain it well. You have to live the part.
My experience is different.
I also encountered the post-modern/feminist/smash the capitalist hierarchial patrimony thing in college. It was almost graduation and I needed the class.
What I found was that I did not need to understand a word of what I was saying. I picked up the knack of writing politically correct gibberish sprinkled with the correct catchphrases, and aced the course.
You just need to know the right buzzwords. Anything with “post-” in it is good - post-modern, post-colonialist, post-ironic. “Deconstructing” is also good - the author (if he/she is Third World) is always “deconstructing the colonialist narrative”. I wrote a whole paper on the hermeneutics of the post-ironic narrative of (IIRC) _Under the Volcano_ by Malcolm Lowry. Because the protagonist is a drunk who drinks bay rum at one point. This is obviously a deconstruction of the masculine narrative, since bay rum is a stereotypically masculine after-shave. But becoming drunk on it distances him from his own life experiences. Thus the author is post-ironically deconstructing the masculine narrative, and showing how the narrative leads to alienation and a failure to connect to the self.
Like I said, it doesn’t have to make sense. Every author is either deconstructing the coloniallist narrative, or is bound and destroyed by it. It is almost impossible to lay it on too thick - the professor in the course asked if I wanted to try to get into graduate school.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/26 "2015-02-10T15:43:00Z")
To quote the late, lamented “Better Off Ted”:
Those are just facts, and facts are just opinions, and opinions can be wrong.
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### Author:  [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/27 "2015-02-10T16:31:31Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Okay, it’s written by two guys whose involvement with sports was a stint on the j.v. lacrosse team. 🙂
Jay Coakley was an all-state basketball player in high school and also played at Regis College in Colorado. Peter Donnelly appears to be on the Faculty of Kinesiology and Physical Education at the University of Toronto, so I would guess he also has a lot of direct experience with sports.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/28 "2015-02-10T17:06:30Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#):
>
> Citations are a tool of dead white male privilege, the book derives all its claims from pure logic.
No, seriously.
I have no problems with the claim that sports have been traditionally used as a means to hold down women. I don’t reflexively reject that conclusion as many people already have. If the book has good evidence or reasonable logic to indicate that this happens, I don’t see the problems with its conclusion.
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### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/29 "2015-02-10T18:26:52Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#):
>
> why soccer didn’t catch on,
I’ve always wondered this. Why didn’t soccer catch on beyond school age kids?
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> No, seriously.
>
> I have no problems with the claim that sports have been traditionally used as a means to hold down women.
Ok, Mr. Smarty, bullshit us with how sports have been traditionally used as a means to hold down women.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/30 "2015-02-10T19:02:39Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> Ok, Mr. Smarty, bullshit us with how sports have been traditionally used as a means to hold down women.
What, you never played Full Contact Hold Down The Woman on the playground?
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### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/31 "2015-02-10T19:05:19Z")
Of course, but that was for sexy times not oppression times.
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### Author:  [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/32 "2015-02-10T19:18:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> I wrote a whole paper on the hermeneutics of the post-ironic narrative of (IIRC) Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry. Because the protagonist is a drunk who drinks bay rum at one point. This is obviously a deconstruction of the masculine narrative, since bay rum is a stereotypically masculine after-shave. But becoming drunk on it distances him from his own life experiences. Thus the author is post-ironically deconstructing the masculine narrative, and showing how the narrative leads to alienation and a failure to connect to the self.
This is how you know I got a sociology minor in college. That sounds really, really interesting.
What we learned is that society(paradigms/systems/hierarchies) don’t oppress women–they oppress _everybody_.
The OP’s passage seems like complete, unadulterated bullshit. I cannot even fake a defense for it. WTF.
I’m really just posting because I thought this was about the Sociology of Sport Journal, and I am disappointed.
[How is this not awesome?](http://journals.humankinetics.com/ssj-in-press/ssj-in-press/ldquoitrsquos-supposed-to-be-about-the-love-of-the-game-not-aaron-rodgersrsquo-eyesrdquo-challenging-the-exclusions-of-women-sports-fans)
> [@](#):
>
> The third wave feminist sensibilities employed in our analysis, and in the narrative experiences of our participants, compel us to recognize and struggle with the seeming contradictions of women sports fans. By giving voice to women sports fans, we offer a feminist intervention into the exclusionary processes that marginalize women’s sports fans.
(I am so, so sorry.)
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/33 "2015-02-10T19:24:03Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> Ok, Mr. Smarty, bullshit us with how sports have been traditionally used as a means to hold down women.
I said I have no problems with the claim, if backed up by evidence. I’m no sports historian but it seems that the reflexive anger and bile spewed by people like you in this thread is misplaced.
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### Author:  [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/34 "2015-02-10T19:43:05Z")
To be fair, if I remember correctly, there are examples of more egalitarian societies engaging in much more egalitarian sports activities. For instance, the Mbuti play something like tug-of-war, with all the men on one side and all the women on the other. If one side begins to win, someone from that side will run over to the other and act in a mockingly male/female way, whichever is appropriate to their new side. It ends with gender-neutral sides and everyone on the ground, laughing, without a winner or loser. Your book should have presented these kinds of cross-cultural studies and then analyzed them. If it skipped straight to the analyzation, then, well, there’s a reason anthropologists mock sociologists.
You guys should be more open in general to these kinds of questions, though. I never had to deal with this kind of thing in my anthropology classes, since I was in grad school and only taking upper division classes with others who were actually interested in the debate. However, I took a lower-division women’s studies class, and this type of “haha, postmodernist feminist nonsense!” spiel was annoying. Argue against the actual analysis if you want (and believe me, that was never a problem in any of my classes), but dismissing all of feminism and postmodernism because you don’t actually understand any but the most ridiculous, fringe type people is not exactly logical.
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### Author:  [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/35 "2015-02-10T19:50:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> I said I have no problems with the claim, if backed up by evidence. I’m no sports historian but it seems that the reflexive anger and bile spewed by people like you in this thread is misplaced.
When a textbook makes a claim that is contrary to most everyone’s perception, reflexive disagreement is what to expect. Many people play sports because they’re fun, not because they want to oppress women. If you read a textbook that said that everyone was actually 7 feet tall, would you laugh or look at its sources?
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### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/36 "2015-02-10T20:21:35Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> I said I have no problems with the claim, if backed up by evidence. I’m no sports historian but it seems that the reflexive anger and bile spewed by people like you in this thread is misplaced.
If you think what I’ve written in this thread is anger and bile then you are the most delicate precious flower ever and you need to be oppressed for your own safety.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/37 "2015-02-10T21:18:30Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#):
>
> When a textbook makes a claim that is contrary to most everyone’s perception, reflexive disagreement is what to expect. Many people play sports because they’re fun, not because they want to oppress women. If you read a textbook that said that everyone was actually 7 feet tall, would you laugh or look at its sources?
I don’t know if its contrary. Sports has long been the dominion of men only. The original Olympics didn’t have women. The early modern Olympics didn’t, and when women’s events were added, they didn’t include some of the more popular ones for women. In this country, we had to have Title IX to force gender equality in sports. Maybe to you its a contrary statement, but I look at the claim that sports have been used to oppress women as something that is believable. I just wanted evidence, nothing wrong with that. Maybe you’ve been too sheltered if you can’t even consider it might be right
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> If you think what I’ve written in this thread is anger and bile then you are the most delicate precious flower ever and you need to be oppressed for your own safety.
If you think this topic is about my personal standards instead of your overreaction, then maybe you are the one who needs to take a step back. Or just admit you were wrong to jump the gun. You probably thought, from my first post in the thread, that I was supporting the contention of sports as oppression of women. That’s why you were mad. When I explained that I just found it believable but wanted evidence, you realized you were wrong but didn’t want to look bad by admitting your mistake. Its perfectly understandable, you’re an overexcited douchebag who loves to berate people for their perceived failings of your personal moral code. We all get like that sometimes, especially when we’re drunk.
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### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/38 "2015-02-10T22:23:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> If you think this topic is about my personal standards instead of your overreaction, then maybe you are the one who needs to take a step back. Or just admit you were wrong to jump the gun. You probably thought, from my first post in the thread, that I was supporting the contention of sports as oppression of women. That’s why you were mad. When I explained that I just found it believable but wanted evidence, you realized you were wrong but didn’t want to look bad by admitting your mistake. Its perfectly understandable, you’re an overexcited douchebag who loves to berate people for their perceived failings of your personal moral code. We all get like that sometimes, especially when we’re drunk.
Jesus Christ you’re retarded.
I now demand three more paragraphs about my anger, my moral code and how wrong I am based on the above statement.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/39 "2015-02-10T23:34:51Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> Jesus Christ you’re retarded.
>
> I now demand three more paragraphs about my anger, my moral code and how wrong I am based on the above statement.
Sure. You’re continuing on the attack because people like you (simple-minded, conservative reactionists) feel that bowing out of an argument or admitting your mistake is a sign of weakness. So you can’t just take perfectly good advice to just confession your error. Your only recourse is to act tougher, meaner, completely disproportionate to the original offense in an effort to get the other guy to back off.
How would your god Jesus feel about you taking his name in vain? I don’t know if you’re religious, and now that you know I’m going to use it against you, you might deny religiosity. Don’t worry, I’m much too lazy to search your post history to see whether you’re religious or not, I’m just going to assume that you are. And with that, I’ve given you an opening to attack me. You sigh in relief, glad to be able to go on the offensive. Not knowing that’s what everyone expects you to do and how it looks. You don’t care, as long as you think it makes you look better, you will do it, you can’t help yourself.
So going back to my original post, I merely wanted clarification. Was this contention backed up by evidence or not. Its not an unreasonable request, is it? If you’re smart, you’ll only reply to this paragraph, and you’ll do so nicely and without vitriol. But we all know you’re not. So have at it.
Bonus: Sometimes, people look smarter and stronger by admitting they made a mistake. We all do it. I probably made one by antagonizing you. Not that I care about your feelings, I just really wanted to know the answer to my question.
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### Author:  [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sociology-of-sports-textbook/712234/40 "2015-02-11T00:23:49Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> Sure. You’re continuing on the attack because people like you (simple-minded, conservative reactionists) feel that bowing out of an argument or admitting your mistake is a sign of weakness.
I am politically liberal, and I think you’re acting like a complete ass.
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