# My students can't name 3 First Amendment rights: sad or normal?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [November 22, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193 "2005-11-22T02:38:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/41 "2005-11-22T19:29:31Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#):
>
> When we have low expectations of our kids, guess what we wind up with?
Perhaps then the OP should throw an advanced Business Calculus question on the test because American kids don’t have enough interest in math & science, and maybe asking such a question will get some of them interested in math. Who cares if they haven’t had Calculus yet?
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/42 "2005-11-22T19:38:28Z")
P.S. That calculator thing was a partial joke everyone. However, I am proud that Americans made computing work. Hand calculation of basic arthimetic has very little educational value after thousands of repetitions.
The GPS thing was a complete joke. All Americans should identify the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and Europe on a map.
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### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/43 "2005-11-22T19:41:46Z")
> [@Manduck](#):
>
> I see a pattern. I knew all five and I am a middle-aged Canadian. So, Americans, if you want your children to know your constitution, send them out into the Commonwealth. Forty years later, they should have it down.
And they’ll need the geography and map-reading skills to find their way home, too! 🙂 Just as long as it doesn’t take them forty years to get there…
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/44 "2005-11-22T19:43:47Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#):
>
> When we have low expectations of our kids, guess what we wind up with?
Fat birds?
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/45 "2005-11-22T19:53:45Z")
I took an elective civics class during the last semester of senior year in high school. Most of us already had our college plans lined up, so we and the teacher regarding the class as 40 minutes of fun. Basically, almost the whole semester was a total goof-off session. But one day the teacher mentioned Learned Hand and was shocked that none of us (including those headed for Ivy League schools) knew who he was. So our serious homework assignment that night was to find out about him and write a short paper describing him.
As for the OP, I think students should know this, and the odd thing is that most naturalized citizens learn more about US government and history (through preparation for the citizenship test) than most native-born adult citizens know.
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### Author:  [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/46 "2005-11-22T20:11:51Z")
I don’t see why it’s important for anyone to know which rights are in which amendment. It’s not like they’re in some logical order that’s necessary to understand - the numbering is just a historical artifact - and as long as they can name most of their constitutional rights in the bill of rights, I’d be completely satisfied. So, no - don’t worry.
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### Author:  [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/47 "2005-11-22T20:22:00Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#):
>
> See how many can find the US on a globe. Then you can cry.
I hope you’re kidding.
In the midst of this pile-on on America’s youth and their teachers, though, one of my friends at my community college uses a slide rule (in favor of his $150 calculator) on his trig homework for fun. Personally, I stick to the $150 calculator, but I pride myself on actually understanding the numbers I’m punching into it.
> [@WhyNot](#):
>
> In fact, I’m pretty sure 8th graders nationwide have to take the constitution test, don’t they? Or is that an Illinois thing?
It’s an Illinois thing. Here in California, we don’t believe in education.
Don’t believe me? A new test called the California High School Exit Exam premiered in my freshman year of high school. The idea is that you take the test over and over again, starting from the first semester of your freshman year, until you pass it.
I–or, I would have assumed at the time, any lifeform above the chimpanzee–could’ve passed the test in 7th grade. There were some kids in my class who took it continually throughout high school and didn’t pass the math section until senior year. My high school was selective.
(I don’t know about Sacramento, where **Bearflag70** says high schoolers have to take Government/Civics class, but I didn’t. Thankfully, I cared enough about my world that I didn’t need it.)
> [@Evil Captor](#):
>
> “Sad” and “Normal” are only two amendments. The others are the right to shoot your mouth off, the right to use guns to shoot other peoples’ mouths off, the right to assemble things piecemeal, the right to go to jail real fast, the right to be bitched out for whatever it is they THINK you did, and a bunch of others.
Don’t forget the right to lose your job and get your family torn apart for using effective medication; or the right to get shot in the head and killed by police while exercising your “right” to peaceably assemble; or the right to have “faith based initiatives” (euphemism for “defecations on Thomas Jefferson’s grave”) shoved down your throat and have your kids taught that condoms are ineffective, and of course the included right to become a grandfather at 30.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> and, in fact, the right to peaceable assembly isn’t all that far off from a right to party
True; you really have to fight for both.
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### Author:  [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/48 "2005-11-22T20:23:28Z")
Oh. I misunderstood. I thought you meant the first, second and third amendments. My bad. Doesn’t really change my answer, though.
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### Author:  [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/49 "2005-11-22T20:29:11Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#):
>
> I was once leaving on a flight out of San Juan, PR and about to go through customs (why they have customs going from one U.S. territory to another I don’t know but I digress). Anyway, one of the customs guys pulled me out of line and said “So, are you an American?” I said, “Yes, sir”. He said, “OK, then tell me what the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution is.” I replied; “The right to bare arms”. He said that I was the first person to get that right all day and he proudly waved me along. Come to think of it, that was kind of a weird question to ask in an airport.
>
> In any case, the moral to this story is that you are fine not knowing the First Amendment if you know the 2nd Amendment if you are going through customs at the San Juan airport.
Were you wearing a tank top, or just a short sleeve shirt?
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/50 "2005-11-22T21:15:46Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Isn’t this something that isn’t taught until high school Government or Civics class (Age 15-17)?
I’m not sure it’s even taught there.
This semester i’m teaching an American Intellectual History class to a group of 24 sophomores. One part of the course deals with Republican Enlightenment, and follows the events and te development of American thought in the period leading up to and immediately following the Revolution.
The final part of this section of the course involves the debates over the new Constitution, and i get the students to read some of the Federalist papers, some anti-Federalist writings, and the United States Constitution.
During discussion that week, i asked if any of them could explain, in rough general terms, what the electoral college system is, and how it works.
Silence.
So i explained the basics, talking about the system of electors. Then i asked how the number of electors from each state is determined within the electoral college system.
Silence.
So i explained that. Then i asked if anyone could explain the difference between the number of senators and the number of representatives in each state.
Silence.
Trying to break it down, i asked how many representatives each state had, and how that number is determined
Silence.
Then i asked how many senators each state has.
Finally, after a long pause, a hesitant hand went up, and the correct answer was forthcoming.
I must say that i was pretty dumbfounded. The students at least had the grace to look very sheepish about their lack of knowledge regarding their own political system, especially when it had to be explained to them by someone with a broad Australian accent.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/51 "2005-11-23T03:01:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#):
>
> Likewise, no one really needs to be able to point to a painted ball on a spool to identify their country. Americans invented the GPS and internet for that sort of thing and we should be proud. We should never weep for those lost skills just as we don’t weep when little girls can’t churn butter like they used to.
No one _needs_ to know where their country is on a globe, but playing with one does teach you a lot about the world, where countries are located, what countries are neighbors of other countries, and how much ocean separates some countries from others.
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### Author:  [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/52 "2005-11-23T03:04:22Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#):
>
> No one _needs_ to know where their country is on a globe, but playing with one does teach you a lot about the world, where countries are located, what countries are neighbors of other countries, and how much ocean separates some countries from others.
Also helps with those spontaneous moves where you spin the globe around; throw a dart at it; and move to (or visit) whatever the dart lands on. I had a high school teacher who did this every time she moved.
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### Author:  [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/53 "2005-11-23T03:18:20Z")
> [@silenus](#):
>
> That’s sad. On first reading, I though the OP was talking about the **3rd Amendment**. That one I could see people not knowing, since the Gubbmint hasn’t gotten arround to violating that one on a regular basis. But 7th graders should be able to name 4 of the 5 without a struggle.
>
> BTW, I also throw out random stuff as extra credit questions in my AP Euro History class. My kids have learned to expect the strange. Last quiz had “When was the last year the Cubs won the National League Pennant?” and “Who shot Jesse James?” 😃
A very long time ago, my AP European History teacher had a final exam that consisted of 100 historical trivia questions. Obscure, obscure stuff, especially in pre-Internet days. It was a take home test. We had a week or so to complete it. Sharing answers was allowed.
I already knew my way around a library fairly well, but that class is where I really learned how to research. That guy was a teacher.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/54 "2005-11-23T04:00:36Z")
That reminds me of an episode of the television series _The Paper Chase_, in which Professor Kingsfield gave his contract law class a scavenger hunt consisting of questions that had the students searching every building on campus to answer.
The problem was that even though the students worked in small groups, none was able to complete the assignment. So they had to share answers among the groups and this involved writing a contract to ensure an equitable sharing of answers, which was the true purpose of the assignment.
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### Author:  [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/55 "2005-11-23T04:13:02Z")
It’s interesting to me to see where this thread has gone… to teachers and professors who ask their students questions of obscure trivial. Is the First Amendment really that much to expect? Hmmm. Even if it is, I doubt it’ll stop me from asking questions like this in the future.
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### Author:  [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/56 "2005-11-23T05:46:32Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#):
>
> It’s interesting to me to see where this thread has gone… to teachers and professors who ask their students questions of obscure trivial. Is the First Amendment really that much to expect? Hmmm. Even if it is, I doubt it’ll stop me from asking questions like this in the future.
I don’t think it’s obscure, but it is trivial to expect students to know their numerical order in the Bill of Rights - which is essentially what you’re asking. A more relevant question would be to ask them to distinguish which rights are constitutionally protected and which aren’t.
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/57 "2005-11-23T06:45:13Z")
> [@uglybeech](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s obscure, but it is trivial to expect students to know their numerical order in the Bill of Rights - which is essentially what you’re asking.
Could not disagree more. Is it reasonable to expect high schoolers to know, say, which section of the Constitution forbids states from passing Bills of Attainder\*? No. But it’s not at all unreasonable to expect them to be able to associate “First Amendment” with some key phrases like “freedom of religion,” “free speech” and “free press.”
\*It’s Article I, section 10, by the way
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/58 "2005-11-23T08:15:27Z")
> [@uglybeech](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s obscure, but it is trivial to expect students to know their numerical order in the Bill of Rights - which is essentially what you’re asking.
I think the rights in the First Amendment because the authors considered them the most important. “Place the ten Bill of Rights amendments in order” - that could be trivia. “Which of these is IX and which is X?” - maybe that’s trivia. “What rights are in the First Amendment?” is not.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-students-cant-name-3-first-amendment-rights-sad-or-normal/332193/59 "2005-11-23T13:29:30Z")
Agreed. But, once again, these aren’t high schoolers. They’re sixth or seventh graders. They’re still studying the pilgrims and Colonists. Since American History is generally taught somewhat chronologically, they still have a couple hundred years (or five months in school time) to get to the Founding Fathers. So the answer to the OP is “sad \*\*but \*\*normal”.
Mind you, I doubt most high schoolers know them either. But high schoolers aren’t the OP’s class.
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