# My stupid county banned e-cigs indoors today :( **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488 "2014-09-04T16:01:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/81 "2014-09-06T10:13:56Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I have no particular stake in this debate either way, but you’ll forgive me if i don’t find this a very compelling argument one way or the other. > > “Insurance company finds excuse to keep premiums high” is not exactly an earth-shattering revelation. Haha, yes. The NHS, which has an incentive to keep health costs down, w[ill introduce e-cigarettes on prescriptions](http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06june/pages/e-cigarettes-and-vaping.aspx). That page has a summary of the promising-but-not-definitive evidence that e-cigarettes are relatively safe and help people stop smoking. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/82 "2014-09-06T11:17:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just wondering-How effective _are_ e-cigs when it comes to quitting smoking? In my experience, not very to actively bad. For one thing you’re at best replacing one way of indulging by another ; for another the thing about e-cig breaks is that they don’t have automatic cutoff points. To clarify : you light up a cigarette, you puff on it, the burny bit reaches the filter, you’re done. That’s the recommend hourly dose of tobacco :). With an e-cig however, you can keep on puffing for \*ever \*: because there’s no obvious cut-off or satisfaction point to smoking tobacco; because vaping doesn’t irritate your throat the way a cigarette does; because tobacco addiction is as much about the \*gestures \*of smoking as it is about craving the substance itself; because these gestures are themselves part of a set of automatic, quasi-unconscious triggers (e.g. coffee = cigarette, phone = cigarette, typing = cigarette etc…); and because the logistics of vaping are less annoying than those of smoking (don’t have to fumble for a lighter, don’t have to go outside, don’t have to deal with ashtrays, don’t have to blow smoke away from the people you’re talking to, don’t have to concern yourself over the smell etc…) many people wind up vaping a lot more, a lot more often than they used to smoke. You can sort of correct for that by picking different nicotine dosages ; but none of it helps quitting altogether. Fact is, for some guys I know it’s had the opposite effect : instead of taking a break to smoke once in a while, they vape constantly. It’s like a weird tic : 10 seconds, puff, 10 seconds, puff etc… ---
**Author:** ![oliviamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@oliviamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliviamia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/83 "2014-10-15T19:24:27Z")
It really is ridiculous ! It’s only emitting water vapor, how can that be harmful !To many dam rules ! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/84 "2014-10-15T19:30:18Z")
> [@oliviamia](#): > > It really is ridiculous ! It’s only emitting water vapor, how can that be harmful !To many dam rules ! That’s Fourteen different threads you’ve revived on the subject so far. I admire your enthusiasm, but why not stick to one or two threads and actually talk _with_ people that are here now, instead of dropping off your daily load of exclamation point-laced statements and running off? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/85 "2014-10-15T19:38:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s ten different threads you’ve revived on the subject so far. I admire your enthusiasm, but why not stick to one or two threads and actually talk _with_ people that are here now, instead of dropping off your daily load of exclamation point-laced statements and running off? That’s several different threads you’ve come in just to chastise oliviamia. I admire your enthusiasm for keeping track of and following posters around but why not stick to not doing that instead of dropping off your daily load of comma laced statements and being annoying? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/86 "2014-10-15T19:43:46Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > That’s several different threads you’ve come in just to chastise oliviamia. I admire your enthusiasm for keeping track of and following posters around but why not stick to not doing that instead of dropping off your daily load of comma laced statements and being annoying? 1. Two is not several. 2. And what is it you’re doing right now, Stalky Smurf? Are you back to following me around again? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/87 "2014-10-15T19:46:49Z")
If given the choice, I’d rther hang out with someone using an e-cig than someone smoking regular cigs. That said, they do not just give off water vapor, as ads claim. [A study published by the American Heart Association:](http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/129/19/1972.full) > [@](#): > > Like cigarettes, e-cigarette particles are small enough to reach deep into the lungs and cross into the systemic circulation. At a minimum, these studies show that e-cigarette aerosol is not merely “water vapor” as is often claimed in the marketing for these products. Tests on e-cigarettes show much lower levels of most toxicants, but not particles, than conventional cigarettes. and… > [@](#): > > Propylene glycol and glycerin are the main base ingredients of the e-liquid. Exposure to propylene glycol can cause eye and respiratory irritation, and prolonged or repeated inhalation in industrial settings may affect the central nervous system, behavior, and the spleen.66 In its product safety materials, Dow Chemical Company states that “inhalation exposure to [propylene glycol] mists should be avoided,”67 and the American Chemistry Council warns against its use in theater fogs because of the potential for eye and respiratory irritation.68 When heated and vaporized, propylene glycol can form propylene oxide, an International Agency for Research on Cancer class 2B carcinogen,69 and glycerol forms acrolein, which can cause upper respiratory tract irritation.70,71 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/88 "2014-10-15T19:54:06Z")
Are there any studies that show what percentage of e-cig users go non-flavored as opposed to flavored? I certainly notice the scented vapers when they use…and for a while after they finish. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/89 "2014-10-15T20:09:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’d like to see cites for either of them. Firstly, that someone could be criminalised for the way they smell, as that seems absurd. Secondly, plenty of protests involve people screaming at the top of their lungs, and it doesn’t seem to be illegal. It does depend how close to someone you are, extremely close could actually harm them. Unlike a smell. Sorry, but [the legal definition of “nuisance” does include noise and smell.](http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/N/Nuisance.aspx) > [@](#): > > Test: what would be tolerated by the ordinary occupier […] which means that abnormal sensitivities may prevent a claim if the nuisance would not have otherwise unreasonably interfered with an ordinary occupier (eg. perfume). > > Nor would it be necessary to prove negligence on the part of the defendant (nuisance is not a branch of the law of negligence). > > Nuisance is an actionable tort. > > Damages are often indirect (as opposed to trespass where the harm is direct by the tort-feasor). > > Examples: noise from a go-kart business; smell from a slaughter-house; dust from a saw mill; smoke. And comparing everyday public environments with protests is silly. Try getting onto a bus or sitting in a public park while persistently screaming at the top of your lungs and see if you don’t score an interview with law enforcement. Moreover, there is indeed a growing number of [private and government policies and even municipal ordinances banning nuisance-level fragrance use in public places](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-02/fragance-ban-allergies/55988704/1). **Civilized normally-functioning human beings in public places should have no detectable smell or emissions that can be noticed by anybody who isn’t right in their personal space.** (Exceptions understood for the occasional and inevitable fart, sneeze, cough or burp, which nonetheless should be emitted as discreetly and hygienically as possible.) As I said, if smokers or vapers or perfume-wearers or peppermint-munchers or kimchi-eaters or any other smelly fumey people can find a way of keeping their odors and emissions within their own personal space, I’m all for letting them pursue their chosen activity anywhere they want. Otherwise, too bad. _ **If it smells, smokes or otherwise spreads to such an extent that it’s noticeable in your general surroundings, don’t do it in public.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/90 "2014-10-16T20:14:51Z")
Personally, I’m ambivalent about this sort of ban. On the one hand, I don’t like the idea of the government banning them; hell, I don’t even like the idea of the government banning the smoking of regular cigarettes inside of privately owned businesses. It goes against my beliefs of what the government’s powers should be, especially with how it was implemented in my state, where it is still legal as long as the smoking area is blocked off and separately ventilated, to the point where many places just block off most of the building and it’s effectively the same as before the ban. At the same time, I do think people who smoke e-cigs indoors are jerks. Sure, e-cigs are almost certainly less dangerous than second-hand smoke, and they’re far less offensive. Sure, studies suggest that they’re not particularly harmful, but there’s also decades worth of studies for cigarettes, and only a few years for e-cigs. What if some of the negative side effects of second-hand e-cig smoke don’t really show up until they’ve done decade-long studies about it to draw trends? Sure, without scientific evidence that it’s dangerous, we shouldn’t ban it, but I’d say without scientific evidence that it’s safe, one shouldn’t be subjecting others to it willy-nilly either. Further, anyone who says they’re undetectable; you’re wrong. I don’t find them as offensive as others upthread claim to, but I can definitely tell when someone is using an e-cig a few tables over in a restaurant and it’s definitely an unpleasant odor. Yes, it’s an order of magnitude better than cigarettes, but it’s still unpleasant and it does have a way of filling the space, particularly if it’s several puffs over the course of a meal. Again, this isn’t a reason to ban it, but it’s definitely inconsiderate of other people around you, not unlike wearing a ton of perfume, eating particularly pungent food at your desk, having gnarly unmanaged BO, or whatever. So, yeah, I’d agree that it’s dumb to ban it, but I also think the OP is a jerk for using it around others indoors. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/91 "2014-10-16T23:05:42Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > On a purely intellectual level, I don’t suppose anyone should consider it to be so. It might be instructive, however, to learn how such a product would be received by the vaping market. I’m using an e-cig that produces a lot of vapor on purpose. I would miss the feeling of exhaling “smoke”. And as previously mentioned, small e-cig don’t produce much vapor to begin with, and if you don’t exhale quickly, there will be nothing left to exhale. That’s the reason why I switched to other models. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/92 "2014-10-16T23:07:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would imagine seeing those vapors indoors would be hard on those that are trying quit smoking altogether. In fact, I’ve been asked to quit vaping indoors at my office because apparently other smokers resented it (since it made they want to smoke, and they had to go outdoors, etc…). Not exactly what you were talking about but somewhat relevant. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/93 "2014-10-16T23:16:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m a heavy smoker, and I laughed out loud when I read this. Physiological nicotine withdrawal symptoms are gone in a matter of days no matter how much you smoke. Physiological maybe, but it’s not the end of it. I’m heavy smoker, and after three weeks without smoking, the urge to smoke went away. After a couple months, I wasn’t even thinking about it. But an ex-girlfriend who was a light smoker (5-10 cigarettes/day) quitted one year and a half ago and still isn’t over it, and still crave for cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/94 "2014-10-16T23:34:33Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > I’ve been to you home city of Chicago on a few occasions. I looked out at the city from the restaraunt at the top of the John Hancock center and could see the smog covering the city like a blanket. Why anyone in city covered in smog would worry about second hand smoke let alone vaping is beyond comprehension. You were near the top of the Hancock building. You were looking at clouds. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/95 "2014-10-17T12:16:11Z")
I agree with jsgoddess that the burden should fall on the vaping industry to prove their safety, both to people who use them directly and those who will inhale second hand residuals. If they are proven safe, then I’d, personally, have no issues allowing unflavored ones to be used in the workplace or in public. Ones that would stink up the joint, whether it’s citric, floral, or herbal, would be looked on far less favorably. FTR, in my company, we are officially actively discouraged from over-scenting ourselves, especially now that we work in open offices. (And we sell perfume and body spray.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/96 "2014-10-17T12:29:49Z")
> [@oliviamia](#): > > It really is ridiculous ! It’s only emitting water vapor, how can that be harmful ! I have no problem with devices that emit only water vapor. The placebo effect must be stronger than I suspected. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/97 "2014-10-17T12:51:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I have no problem with devices that emit only water vapor. > > The placebo effect must be stronger than I suspected. 😛 Maybe it’s homeopathic nicotine. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/98 "2014-10-17T15:00:54Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Maybe it’s homeopathic nicotine. The strongest kick yet! Since reality constantly trumps what we’d expect to be a joke, there’s already at least one homeopathic e-cig on the market: “In case vaping nicotine is not your preference, you can also find your ideal choices from the Homeopathic range of Twisp flavors. Even with no nicotine, these flavors can still offer the kick you might be looking for.” [https://www.indypress.org/news-press/twisp-ecigarettes-not-your-ordinary-electronic-cigarette.html](https://www.indypress.org/news-press/twisp-ecigarettes-not-your-ordinary-electronic-cigarette.html) And this somewhat confused e-cig enthusiast thinks that marketing these products as homeopathic drugs is the way to go: [http://www.e-cig.org/2009/01/27/the-electronic-cigarette-as-a-homeopathic-drug/](http://www.e-cig.org/2009/01/27/the-electronic-cigarette-as-a-homeopathic-drug/) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/99 "2014-10-17T15:27:18Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > So the same thing that’s used in your inhaler is the same thing that triggers your asthma attacks? :dubious: Uh, probably not. My inhaler doesn’t contain metals and fine particulates, as second-hand vape mist does. [Source](http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/129/19/1972.full#sec-6). > [@](#): > > In their study of passive exposure to exhaled e-cigarette aerosol in a simulated café, **Schober et al39 found that concentrations of fine particles in the air increased from a median of 400 particles per 1 cm3 with people simply sitting in the room for 2 hours to medians of 49 000 to 88 000 particles per 1 cm3 (depending on the e-cigarette fluid used) after 2 hours of e-cigarette use in the same room** > > Both the e-liquid and the Poly-fil fibers that are used to absorb the e-liquid for heating and conversion to an aerosol come into contact with heating elements that contain heavy metals (tin, nickel, copper, lead, chromium). Williams et al58 found heavy metals in samples of e-cigarette liquids and aerosol. Tin, which appeared to originate from solder joints, was found as both particles and tin whiskers in the fluid and Poly-fil, and e-cigarette fluid containing tin was cytotoxic to human pulmonary fibroblasts.\*\* E-cigarette aerosol also contained other metals, including nickel, 2 to 100 times higher than found in Marlboro cigarette smoke. \*\*The nickel and chromium nanoparticles (\<100 nm) possibly originated from the heating element. It is likely that engineering features, including the nature of the battery, the heating temperature of the liquid, and the type of heating element and reservoir, will influence the nature, number, and size of particles produced. These metal nanoparticles can deposit into alveolar sacs in the lungs, potentially causing local respiratory toxicity and entering the bloodstream. > > In summary, the particle size distribution and number of particles delivered by e-cigarettes are similar to those of conventional cigarettes, with most particles in the ultrafine range (modes, ≈100–200 nm). Particle delivery appears to depend on the nicotine level in the e-cigarette fluid but not the presence of flavors. Smokers exhale some of these particles, which exposes bystanders to “passive vaping.” Like cigarettes, e-cigarette particles are small enough to reach deep into the lungs and cross into the systemic circulation. At a minimum, these studies show that e-cigarette aerosol is not merely “water vapor” as is often claimed in the marketing for these products. Tests on e-cigarettes show much lower levels of most toxicants, but not particles, than conventional cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488/100 "2014-10-17T15:39:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Moreover, there is indeed a growing number of [private and government policies and even municipal ordinances banning nuisance-level fragrance use in public places](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-02/fragance-ban-allergies/55988704/1). That link hardly proves there is a growing trend. “Nuisance level” is also so completely subjective that’s its meaningless. > [@](#): > > Civilized normally-functioning human beings in public places should have no detectable smell or emissions that can be noticed by anybody who isn’t right in their personal space. (Exceptions understood for the occasional and inevitable fart, sneeze, cough or burp, which nonetheless should be emitted as discreetly and hygienically as possible.) Civilized normally functioning human beings have better things to worry about than somebody who puts on too much Coolwater or Polo sport. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-stupid-county-banned-e-cigs-indoors-today/697488.md?page=6)