# My take on God, if anybody cares. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372 "2011-12-25T19:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/201 "2011-12-30T21:03:41Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Any comments on that answer? If reality cannot be perceived then how can I know that reality is there? [QUOTE=Rene Descartes] for whether I am awake or dreaming, it remains true that two and three makes five [/QUOTE] Reality is there; therefore, 2 + 3 = 5? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > By noticing patterns in my sensory inputs, I’m able to construct a model of “reality” that has predictive value. It doesn’t really matter if the “reality” that I’m modelling is really there, or is an elaborate simulation, or is a delusion. The truths that I learn about its behavior are valid whatever its fundamental nature happens to be. Is 2 + 3 = 5 one of the patterns that you notice? [If everyone believes it, does that make it true?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_%2B_2_%3D_5) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/202 "2011-12-30T22:39:08Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > If reality cannot be perceived then how can I know that reality is there? Did you even read my answer? SOMETHING is there, even if it’s only my own mind playing tricks. And that something behaves in consistent ways. Because of that, I’m able to accurately predict how that something will behave in the future. It doesn’t really matter if my internal model matches reality. All that matters is that it makes correct predictions. > [@](#): > > Is 2 + 3 = 5 one of the patterns that you notice? No. “2+3=5” is a mathematical abstraction that can be used as an element of certain models of reality. It’s not a pattern by itself. For example, in my default model of reality I tend to picture the world as being filled with things. However I know “thing-ness” is really just a cognitive convenience. The molecules making up a table don’t know they’re part of a table. “Table” is a conceptual category I create in order to lump a collection of sensory traces into a manageable chunk. Something is triggering those sensory traces, but its not actually a THING that’s a TABLE. That’s just a useful model. “2+3=5” is a useful way to describe how THINGS behave in my model. However, I have no proof that that math is an essential part of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/203 "2011-12-30T23:05:33Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > SOMETHING is there, even if it’s only my own mind playing tricks. And that something behaves in consistent ways. Because of that, I’m able to accurately predict how that something will behave in the future. It doesn’t really matter if my internal model matches reality. All that matters is that it makes correct predictions. SOMEONE is there, even if it’s only my own mind playing tricks. And that someone behaves in consistent ways. Because of that, [I’m able to accurately predict how that someone will behave in the future](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory). It doesn’t matter if my internal model matches reality. All that matters is that it makes correct predictions. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > However, I have no proof that that math is an essential part of reality. However, I have no proof that that I am an essential part of reality. Or do I? Or do you? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Do I get a gold star? You get a gold star if you give a good reply to this post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/204 "2011-12-31T04:03:22Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > SOMEONE is there, even if it’s only my own mind playing tricks. And that someone behaves in consistent ways. Because of that, [I’m able to accurately predict how that someone will behave in the future](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory). It doesn’t matter if my internal model matches reality. All that matters is that it makes correct predictions. > However, I have no proof that that I am an essential part of reality. Or do I? Or do you? > You get a gold star if you give a good reply to this post. As far as I can tell, there _is_ no good reply that you couldn’t come back with “and how do you _that_ is real?” I’ve ask before, and I’ll ask again: What would valid proof, or even evidence, consist of in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/205 "2011-12-31T04:14:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > You get a gold star if you give a good reply to this post. You can’t win. Either reality exists in which case you are wrong, or it _doesn’t_ exist in which case there _is_ no **Kozmik** in the first place to win the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/206 "2011-12-31T05:32:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As far as I can tell, there _is_ no good reply that you couldn’t come back with “and how do you _that_ is real?” I am not a solipsist; in fact, I am an anti-solipsist. Anti-solipsism, modeled after [solipsism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism), is the philosophical idea that everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist. The external world and [other minds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds) can be known. How can the external world and other minds be known, and, as **Czarcasm** asks, how do you [know] _that_ is real? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/207 "2011-12-31T07:22:28Z")
> [@](#): > > However, I have no proof that that I am an essential part of reality. Or do I? Or do you? Nothing in my current model of reality suggests that I’m an essential part of it. I have no way of proving that, of course. But that doesn’t bother me. I have no way of proving ANY a posteriori claim. All I can do is construct a computationally efficient model of reality and periodically revise it when its predictions disagree with my sensory inputs. > [@](#): > > Anti-solipsism, modeled after solipsism, is the philosophical idea that everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist. If your mind doesn’t exist, how are you thinking? Sometimes we think something exists, but it turns out not to. I thought there was a pickle in my refrigerator, but my son ate the last one yesterday. Considering that sometimes we are mistaken about the existence of some objects, how can you claim that you can never be mistaken about the existence of anything? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/208 "2011-12-31T14:46:26Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Nothing in my current model of reality suggests that I’m an essential part of it. Why not? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If your mind doesn’t exist, how are you thinking? [I’m able to accurately predict how someone will behave in the future.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory) > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Sometimes we think something exists, but it turns out not to. [And sometimes we think someone exists, but they turn out not to.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14618425&postcount=206) > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Considering that sometimes we are mistaken about the existence of some objects, how can you claim that you can never be mistaken about the existence of anything? Solipsism makes the claim that [the external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism). I can claim that I can never be mistaken about the existence of anything because, as an anti-solipsist, I make the claim that the external world and other minds can be known, and do exist. The question is: How would an anti-solipsist know that the external world and other minds exist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/209 "2011-12-31T15:03:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I am not a solipsist; in fact, I am an anti-solipsist. > > Anti-solipsism, modeled after [solipsism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism), is the philosophical idea that everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist. The external world and [other minds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds) can be known. How can the external world and other minds be known, and, as **Czarcasm** asks, how do you [know] _that_ is real? I didn’t ask any such thing. I was saying that there was no use trying to answer your question because that was how _you_ would respond…and I was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/210 "2011-12-31T15:08:27Z")
All I know is that none of you are nearly as real as me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/211 "2011-12-31T15:45:24Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why not? Because my model of reality includes the notion that the current structure of the universe is dependent upon billions of years of history prior to my arrival on the scene. Hence I am not an essential part of the universe. > [@](#): > > [I’m able to accurately predict how someone will behave in the future.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory) That doesn’t answer my question. You say you don’t believe your own mind exists. If so, what’s doing the thinking? > [@](#): > > [And sometimes we think someone exists, but they turn out not to.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14618425&postcount=206) Your retreat into cryptic answers suggests that you realize your position is incoherent. You said “Everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist.” I pointed out that the pickles in my fridge weren’t “sure to exist”. If I can be mistaken about a simple feature of reality like the existence of pickles in my fridge, then perhaps I can be mistaken about more complicated features as well. Is short, your “anti-solipsism” is demonstrably FALSE. > [@](#): > > The question is: How would an anti-solipsist know that the external world and other minds exist? Pray tell, enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/212 "2012-01-01T03:22:22Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You said “Everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist.” I pointed out that the pickles in my fridge weren’t “sure to exist”. If I can be mistaken about a simple feature of reality like the existence of pickles in my fridge, then perhaps I can be mistaken about more complicated features as well. So then are you a solipsist? [Solipsism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism) is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind, alone, is “sure to exist”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/213 "2012-01-01T08:52:09Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So then are you a solipsist? I can’t \*prove \*the existence of anything other than my own mind. However, I provisionally accept the existence of an external reality as the most plausible explanation for my sensory experiences. You say you don’t think your mind exists. What are you thinking with? You say you can be certain of the existence of the external world. How do you justify that certainty? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/214 "2012-01-01T14:00:08Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I can’t _prove_ the existence of anything other than my own mind. However, I provisionally accept the existence of an external reality as the most plausible explanation for my sensory experiences. Is that how you justify that certainty? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You say you don’t think your mind exists. What are you thinking with? You wrote, “I’m able to accurately predict how that something will behave in the future”; I wrote, “I’m able to accurately predict how someone will behave in the future.” How can you claim that something, let alone someone, in any sense of the word, can “behave”? Are you able to accurately predict how other minds will behave in the future? Are you able to accurately predict how the external world will behave in the future? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You say you can be certain of the existence of the external world. How do you justify that certainty? I provisionally accept the existence of the external world as the most plausible explanation for other minds. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/215 "2012-01-01T14:41:03Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I provisionally accept the existence of the external world as the most plausible explanation for other minds. What is the most plausible explanation in _your_ mind? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/216 "2012-01-01T15:44:53Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Is that how you justify that certainty? My model makes accurate predictions. I think there’s a chair there, and when I go to sit down, my sensations confirm that there is. > [@](#): > > How can you claim that something, let alone someone, in any sense of the word, can “behave”? I’m using “behave” in a very general sense. For example, other humans don’t pop randomly in and out of existence. They don’t walk through walls or suddenly grow to be 200’ tall. They behave as though their physical beings are constrained by natural law. > [@](#): > > Are you able to accurately predict how other minds will behave in the future? To a limited extent. Minds are chaotic systems, which are difficult to simulate. However, within generous bounds, yes, I can predict how other minds will behave. For example, about an hour from now when my wife wakes up she’ll almost certainly ask me if I made coffee for her yet. > [@](#): > > Are you able to accurately predict how the external world will behave in the future? Absolutely. I couldn’t drive a car if I couldn’t. > [@](#): > > I provisionally accept the existence of the external world as the most plausible explanation for other minds. Ah, so you’re not an anti-solipsist at all! You can’t PROVE that other minds exist. It’s just a plausible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/217 "2012-01-01T23:07:59Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Absolutely. I couldn’t drive a car if I couldn’t. What if you didn’t have to drive a car? What if cars are able to accurately predict how the external world and other minds will behave in the future? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You can’t PROVE that other minds exist. I can prove that the external world and other minds exist. The solipsist says “the external world and other minds cannot be known”. As an anti-solipsist, I say the contrary and declare that the external world and other minds can be known. The solipsist says that only one’s own mind, alone, is “sure to exist”. The anti-solipsist says that everything, except one’s own mind, is sure to exist. I can’t PROVE that my own mind does not exist. You can’t PROVE that the external world and other minds exist. You can’t PROVE that your own mind exists, either! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/218 "2012-01-02T00:40:46Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What if you didn’t have to drive a car? Goodness, it’s just an example. If I couldn’t accurately predict the future behavior of the universe, I couldn’t even walk down the hall. > [@](#): > > I can prove that the external world and other minds exist. So you claim. I say you’re wrong. Why don’t you show us your proof? > [@](#): > > You can’t PROVE that the external world and other minds exist. So, which is it? CAN you prove that the external world and other minds exist, or CAN’T you? > [@](#): > > You can’t PROVE that your own mind exists, either! _Cogito ergo sum._ ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/219 "2012-01-02T02:05:12Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > So you claim. I say you’re wrong. Why don’t you show us your proof? Proof: 1. Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is “sure to exist”. _Cogito ergo sum_. 2. Solipsism claims that the external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside of one’s own mind. 3. Either the claims of solipsism are true or the claims of solipsism are false. 4. The claims of solipsism are false. 5. Therefore, the external world and other minds can be known. See: 2. 6. The external world and other minds are “everything”. See: 1. 7. Therefore, everything, except one’s own mind, is “sure to exist”. 8. Thus, anti-solipsism is the philosophical idea that everything, except one’s own mind, is “sure to exist”. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > CAN you prove that the external world and other minds exist, or CAN’T you? Did you even read my answer? _You_ can’t PROVE that the external world and other minds exist. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > _Cogito ergo sum._ See my proof: 1. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/220 "2012-01-02T13:48:41Z")
> [@Schyler](#): > > I believe in God as well. But only in the sense that something “out there” must guide our lives. I’ve seen really odd things happen, good or bad, which simply can not be confused with coincidence. Cannot be explained in terms of reality. And honestly, what hope has humanity if we didn’t believe in “something”. > > More so if your theory of “10 levels of being” exists. It would possibly hint at the possibility that someone “is” out there watching. That we are participating in a huge human recycling system. It would give credence to the phenomenon of “past lives”. That the “white light” people see who have a near death experience might be merely a vacuum between “levels”. That some of our earthly journey (mentally or spiritually) might be taken with us between levels as well. Having had an experience that I thought was near death was the Chemicals acting on my brain and the possible hearing the talk of the doctors and nurses in attendance. There is much to the human mind that cannot be explained but is not necessarily from another being ,or dimension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372.md?page=12)