# MY Test for Telekinesis... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 17, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508 "2010-06-17T03:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/21 "2010-06-21T19:09:28Z")
I’ll answer that very briefly, and then say no more about Randi. [Here is one story Randi told](http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/randi01.htm)that is an obvious lie. There are hundreds of others. > [@](#): > > I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because they only have a six percent chance of success. There’s three things wrong with that one short piece. Specifically: 1. He is wrong to claim there is water under 94% of theEarth. Actually, underground water is hard to find. If you just select a spot at random and drill, you are very likely to come up dry. 2. This means that the test that he designed is pretty stupid. If he actually conducted such a test, he would lose. 3. He has never actually challednged any dowser to “find a dry spot” and if he did, they would all accept. It’s a story he’s told over and over for thirty years, and it’s a total fabrication. And here’s the clincher. I am willing to take the test as he has described it. If he’s telling the truth, then that would be a legitimate display of paranormal powers. Of course, Randi refused to actually conduct the test. Why did he refuse? Because he’s lying. Here’s the thing. Every time there is a discussion of dowsing, some troublemaker cites Randi’s story. Most of them know it’s a lie. They are not fighting ignorance, they are threadshitting. That’s one example of Randi’s lies among hundreds. You can take it or leave it, as you wish. Please do not discuss him any further. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/22 "2010-06-22T14:37:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > 1. He is wrong to claim there is water under 94% of theEarth. Actually, underground water is hard to find. If you just select a spot at random and drill, you are very likely to come up dry. Cite? > [@](#): > > 1. He has never actually challednged any dowser to “find a dry spot” and if he did, they would all accept. Cite? > [@](#): > > I am willing to take the test as he has described it. If he’s telling the truth, then that would be a legitimate display of paranormal powers. Of course, Randi refused to actually conduct the test. Why did he refuse? Because he’s lying. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/23 "2010-06-22T15:38:53Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > 1. He is wrong to claim there is water under 94% of theEarth. Actually, underground water is hard to find. If you just select a spot at random and drill, you are very likely to come up dry. It certainly is not hard to find. [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/159/does-dowsing-for-water-really-work) seems to think that in the dryer parts of the US hit-and-miss will get water around 75% in much of the rest of the country it is pretty much guaranteed. > [@](#): > > 1. This means that the test that he designed is pretty stupid. If he actually conducted such a test, he would lose. Then why hasn’t anyone proposed this as one of the ways to try an win that million Randi use to have up for offer? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/24 "2010-06-22T16:24:28Z")
I’ve always thought that the ultimate proof that telekinesis does not exist (at least in animals) can be found by observing my dog. When there is food on a low table near her, she **knows** that she is not to touch it. However, any food that falls on the floor is legally hers (precedent, Rover vs. The Smiths) I have seen her staring at the food intently, absolutely WILLING it to fall on the floor. STARING a the food - trying as hard as she can to get it off the table. If there was ANY telekinetic ability physically possible in the universe, dogs would have developed it to it’s ultimate power. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/25 "2010-06-22T17:07:03Z")
> [@flight](#): > > Then why hasn’t anyone proposed this as one of the ways to try an win that million Randi use to have up for offer? I did. I sent in my application agreeing to the protocol he had described. He refused to go through with it. (and that’s my cite, SFG) Please no further mentions of Randi. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/26 "2010-06-22T17:13:05Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I did. I sent in my application agreeing to the protocol he had described. He refused to go through with it. (and that’s my cite, SFG) Uh huh. So your “cite” is “uh, 'cause.” That doesn’t cut it. We’d need (a) the details of your application, (b) proof it was submitted and received, and (c) the exact reason(s) given for its rejection. And all of that as something more than your say-so, like, say a chain of emails or a scan of a letter. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/27 "2010-06-22T17:44:34Z")
Yeah, well, at the time I put up a website detailing my application. I got a load of hate from the Randi supporters. Now, please don’t continue the hijack. Stop talking about Randi. Also, don’t talk about dowsing. Instead, let’s discuss ways to test telekinesis. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/28 "2010-06-22T18:37:23Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Uh huh. So your “cite” is “uh, 'cause.” That doesn’t cut it. We’d need (a) the details of your application, (b) proof it was submitted and received, and (c) the exact reason(s) given for its rejection. And all of that as something more than your say-so, like, say a chain of emails or a scan of a letter. Please let this go. Lookup basically any other thread Peter Morris is in for his standard Randirant. To the OP: There are close to 3000 earthquakes a year in many places in the US, most of which are too small to be felt. Plus, such things as truck vibration can be measured by sensitive equipment miles away. It’s just not possible to get the level of isolation you’s require: your test would always be detecting movement on the nanometer scales. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/29 "2010-06-22T18:43:17Z")
More to the point: if you could discover that the item wasn’t moving when the alleged telekinetic power wasn’t being applied, and was moving when the alleged telekinetic power was being applied (with a suitably blinded setup to prevent the interpretation of the nano-scale measurements from being biased in favor of (or against) such a correlation), then that would be significant. But otherwise, just discovering the latter branch tells you nothing, without the control provided by the former branch. ---
**Author:** ![hougaswd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@hougaswd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hougaswd)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/30 "2010-06-22T19:04:48Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Your test for whether people can move things a little without physical contact is checking to see if the things they try to move a little without physical contact do in fact move a little? > > I mean, yeah, I imagine that’s everyone’s first proposed test. I mean, I don’t see what’s so noteworthy about the idea. What’s next, testing alleged levitation by checking to see whether the claimant really does lift off the ground? > > (Granted, you want to check on the nanometer scale, which I suppose _is_ distinctive. But surely everything moves on the nanometer scale all the time…) Bingo! What the OP is proposing is saying (my translation): “While we can rule out telekinesis on objects we can measure, it isn’t as easy to rule out telekinesis if we try to measure things below the noise limit of our instruments.” That’s true, but not very interesting. All measuring instruments have a lower limit of accuracy. The reason we put limits on them is that everything below that is essentially random data. Sure, you can’t rule it out, but there’s no reason to think anything is going on either. If you enjoy this sort of thing, try tuning your TV to a channel without an operational transmitter within range. If you watch long enough, you might see an image. Briefly. Walt ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/31 "2010-06-22T19:43:55Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Please let this go. Lookup basically any other thread Peter Morris is in for his standard Randirant. Yeah, thank you, except that about 99% of threads I’m in have nothing to do with Randi. I agree that we should let it go. Please stop talking about him. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/32 "2010-06-22T19:44:21Z")
> [@hougaswd](#): > > Sure, you can’t rule it out, but there’s no reason to think anything is going on either. Right, that’s why something like telekinesis can never be proved to not exist. It will never be proved to exist, but a non infinite amount of failures to prove it’s existence don’t technically prove it doesn’t. As far as the problem of unavoidable seismic disturbances, conduct the experiments in space. Using the right materials and testing equipment, with identical and identically measured control objects present in the space capsule, I think a very expensive scenario could be constructed _capable_ of proving telekinesis is real. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/33 "2010-06-22T19:49:36Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > It will never be proved to exist, How do you know? We can say that it hasn’t been proven to exist yet. We can’t say for sure that it will never be proven to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/34 "2010-06-22T20:43:45Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Now, please don’t continue the hijack. Stop talking about Randi. Also, don’t talk about dowsing. Instead, let’s discuss ways to test telekinesis. I find it interesting that you drop a load of unsupported bollocks on a thread and then ask \*everyone else \*to stop hijacking. But apparently you don’t have a leg to stand on, so there’s no point in continuing to ask you for evidence you can’t provide. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/35 "2010-06-22T20:59:59Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > How do you know? > We can say that it hasn’t been proven to exist yet. We can’t say for sure that it will never be proven to exist. Maybe we can’t, but I can. I also know people can’t turn their turds into gold by whispering to them, though it’s not been proven they can’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/36 "2010-06-22T21:07:03Z")
That’s always the problem with unsupported claims. You can’t ever 100% disprove anything–you can just make statements about _what we’ve observed up to this point_. So the question then becomes: how much to we have to observe in order to be reasonably cerrtain, to the extent we can say that we “know,” that some thing or phenomenon doesn’t exist? People who believe in these sorts of nonfalsifiable things put no upper limits on the number of times they can fail to be demonstrated. And that’s why it’s impossible to ever have a logical discussion about them. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/37 "2010-06-22T21:08:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I find it interesting that you drop a load of unsupported bollocks on a thread and then ask everyone else to stop hijacking. But apparently you don’t have a leg to stand on, so there’s no point in continuing to ask you for evidence you can’t provide. [/hijack] The proof is given. The fact that you won’t accept it is your fault. I’m done talking to you. I shall ignore any further threadshitting from you. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/38 "2010-06-22T21:10:48Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Maybe we can’t, but I can. I also know people can’t turn their turds into gold by whispering to them, though it’s not been proven they can’t either. A logical fallacy, there. That’s would only be relevent if there were a few people claiming it IS possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/39 "2010-06-22T21:22:53Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > A logical fallacy, there. That’s would only be relevent if there were a few people claiming it IS possible. How do you know no one is? And how many people have to claim it for that to cease being a logical fallacy? A few is too vague a term. 4? 102? 100,028? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508/40 "2010-06-22T21:25:12Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > How do you know no one is? And how many people have to claim it for that to cease being a logical fallacy? A few is too vague a term. 4? 102? 100,028? Tell you what, you find me 4 people making the claim, then we’ll talk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-test-for-telekinesis/543508.md?page=3)