# Mystery Mafia -- Game Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 17, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025 "2011-08-17T14:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/141 "2011-08-17T17:36:32Z")
> [@brewha](#): > > I can see how it would give town information to announce what may have happened, but the wolves have night actions too. Do we want to potentially give them the same information? I am assuming that the wolves will be able to determine their roles fairly quickly since they will be able to share targets, notes, and PMs. Any information leading the wolves to their own roles will probably come after they’ve already figured it out. What we usually worry about in these games is not exposing the town power roles for the scum to pick off, but since every one of us has some sort of power and we are likely to have more than one of most roles, it seems a little less of a worry to me. It does seem important that we figure out our roles as soon as possible, but I’m not sure that just a mass sharing of targets will help town that much. Wouldn’t it be better to selectively share information based on what we learn in the morning? For example, if I am blocked tonight, I think I would want to share that info with town, but knowing who my target was isn’t really going to help town. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/142 "2011-08-17T17:38:27Z")
> [@Dancecat](#): > > Ok, I will break this down for you a little further since you seem to be having some trouble understanding why your idea is so awful: Gah, I can’t quote you directly when you respond like that. That’s frustrating. > [@](#): > > Increasing available information for the wolves is NEVER irrelevant. Their advantage is in information, and it would behoove us not to help them further in this department if there’s any way to avoid it. Everyone posting the targets of their night actions would out all the big village power roles in a hurry and, then the wolves will just pick them all off. You are either overvaluing the information that the town can give scum, or you are undervaluing just how large the advantage information-wise scum have coming into the game. Either way I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We can talk about it later if you like, because I would like to, but since it is primarily discussing an idea that I have abandoned I don’t see the point in doing so right now. > [@](#): > > But the scum know this, and can really easily plan around it. Even if it forces one or two to out themselves, it’s still not worth sacrificing all the vigs and seers. It absolutely is. If town takes down 2 or three scum, I would gladly trade a vig or cop particularly if town is gaining information that makes the cop less valuable at the same time. I would trade any single cop for any single scum in a heartbeat. > [@](#): > > This is 100% false and isn’t even an argument. One of the best things that a non-powerful villager can do is leave good cover and draw a kill. I know you guys play differently around here and I get that, but leaving seer cover is a tried and true method of extending the lifespan of the real seer and forcing the wolves to provide additional info for the village via the night kills (which are presumably seer hunts). This is possibly a cultural thing, and again, I may just not understand fully what you are talking about. I don’t disagree that vanilla town should draw fire, but misleading the town is always a net negative. You go on about how there is an information disparity, great. You may not believe this, but that is actually one of my traditional soapbox topics. But you are doing totally different things with the disparity than I would. Because that disparity is one of town’s best tools for catching scum, and lying and manipulating the game makes it harder to catch scum. It doesn’t matter how much easier it is for the seer to survive if the town mislynches itself to a loss in the process. I think that’s going to be the biggest cultural divide here actually. You seem to put a lot more value on power roles than I do. You are wrong. You are probably town, but that doesn’t make you not wrong. I’m sorry that I don’t want all our seers and vigs to be outed and die. If that makes me wrong, I don’t want to be right. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/143 "2011-08-17T17:41:06Z")
**TexCat** has a point. If we get messages based on other players’ actions, we can at least figure out a minimal count of how many of that role we have. OTTOMH, we might get such messages from roleblockers, Docs/Angels, and perhaps watchers & trackers. Gad said there may be unusual roles as well, so ISTM we want to know soon-ish what exists. Plus, this can feed back to the actor. For the sake of discussion, let’s assume **Tex** acts on me toNight. If I post toMorrow that I received a PM that I was blocked, Tex concludes e may be a roleblocker. The obfuscating factor here is whether anybody else acted on me, which would be cleared up if & when we do a mass claim of targets. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/144 "2011-08-17T17:42:09Z")
Of course this game there is no Vanilla Town to toss themselves under the buss so the point is moot ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/145 "2011-08-17T17:50:26Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Of course this game there is no Vanilla Town to toss themselves under the buss so the point is moot Are you sure about that? Just because everyone gets a night action doesn’t mean that everyone’s action is particularly useful. Is there any reason to believe otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/146 "2011-08-17T17:51:56Z")
> [@lilflower](#): > > By the way, for those of you who don’t know, I’m **Metallic Squink**. Sorry for the two screen names but it’s a long, boring story. Just get used to it already! ## Yay! The biggest problem I see with **NAF** ’s idea involves the rule about no two-Nights-in-a-row targets. That lets scum know who _won’t_ be hit the next Night by the individual powers, and I see a strong possibility for this list to help scum Night action strategy disproportionately. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/147 "2011-08-17T17:52:39Z")
Hey guys, just checking in to let you know I’m feeling crazy sick today, so I’m not planning on playing tonight. I’ll see you guys tomorrow! I did want to mention to those of you who are spoiled for my still-ongoing De’endee game: DO NOT USE examples from that game to justify votes or cases in this game. As there are several players who are still alive over there, you risk giving out spoiled information they shouldn’t be privy to. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t talk about that game at all until it concludes. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/148 "2011-08-17T17:53:23Z")
> [@brewha](#): > > Are you sure about that? Just because everyone gets a night action doesn’t mean that everyone’s action is particularly useful. > > Is there any reason to believe otherwise? We’ve been told everybody has a Night action. As for usefulness – in International Mafia, I had a Night action that could prevent people from leaving my half of the game (New Zealand) and traveling to the other half of the game (United Kingdom). As things played out, it wasn’t useful. But I wasn’t Vanilla Kiwi. So yes, there’s no plain Town in this game. Usefulness depends on how the game plays out. ---
**Author:** ![lilflower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@lilflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilflower)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/149 "2011-08-17T17:54:05Z")
\*\*NAF \*\*brings up a good point about the value of the power roles. I used to play in a way that I hoped the power roles would save town but I’ve recently come around to the view that power roles don’t have to win the game for us nor should we rely on them to win the game. For me, I view the game discussion as the most valuable source of information, i.e., scum tells. I’m leaning more towards viewing information from power roles as icing on the proverbial scum cake. (I don’t know what a scum cake is but I wanted to say it!). I only trust what I know and what I can glean from the discussion threads. I have a tendency to distrust pretty much any claim that I cannot confirm for myself (or was mod-confirmed). So for me, knowing anyone’s targets isn’t all that helpful because I’m not likely to believe it unless it can be confirmed by a large number of players (thereby reducing the likelihood of a scum gambit). So overall, I don’t think his idea is any better or worse than anything else town is likely to do regarding claims. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/150 "2011-08-17T17:57:20Z")
**EARLY VOTE COUNT** Through post #149 MykBot (2): Zeriel [21], TimeLady [24] Giraffe (1): special ed [51] NAF1138 (1): Dancecat [53] Dancecat (1): Idle Thoughts [72] Idle Thoughts (1): Krayz [86]\* \*make it bold and blue next time tho Thought I remembered somebody unvoting somebody, but I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/151 "2011-08-17T17:58:26Z")
Should probably put this on the top of the page. **EARLY VOTE COUNT** Through post #150 MykBot (2): Zeriel [21], TimeLady [24] Giraffe (1): special ed [51] NAF1138 (1): Dancecat [53] Dancecat (1): Idle Thoughts [72] Idle Thoughts (1): Krayz [86]\* \*make it bold and blue next time tho Thought I remembered somebody unvoting somebody, but I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/152 "2011-08-17T18:00:08Z")
> [@brewha](#): > > Are you sure about that? Just because everyone gets a night action doesn’t mean that everyone’s action is particularly useful. > > Is there any reason to believe otherwise? The way I see it Everyplayer has a night action (ie some sort of power) = No Vanilla At this point every player has to have the mind set that they do indeed have a valuable role in this game. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/153 "2011-08-17T18:02:58Z")
> [@bufftabby](#): > > The biggest problem I see with **NAF** ’s idea involves the rule about no two-Nights-in-a-row targets. That lets scum know who _won’t_ be hit the next Night by the individual powers, and I see a strong possibility for this list to help scum Night action strategy disproportionately. Yes yes, it was a terrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Krayz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba9def/32.png) [@Krayz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krayz)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/154 "2011-08-17T18:19:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Man, I’m gonna vote you for being a doo-doo head if you don’t knock that off. This thread is going to be spammy enough without jibba-jabba about the posting timeout. come at me bro ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/155 "2011-08-17T18:20:15Z")
> [@Dancecat](#): > > Increasing available information for the wolves is NEVER irrelevant. Their advantage is in information, and it would behoove us not to help them further in this department if there’s any way to avoid it. While that’s true as it stands, consider it this way: Right now, town has 0 information and scum has 1 information. Naively, if everyone posts their targets truly, and say that information is worth 1 point per night, then town has 1 information and scum has 2 information. So town’s gone from “infinitely less information” to “half as much information”. After another night, then it’s 2 and 3, town closing the information gap yet again. At some point you can make the argument that improving the ratio of information between scum and town justifying paying for that improvement by increasing scum’s absolute amount of information. Especially if the information that you provide to both sides is such that a good lynch or other town action can flip the information ratio to our side. Figuring out when this is a wise decision is literally impossible on Day One in a closed game, but NAF’s plan isn’t ENTIRELY stupid, just a gamble right now with unknown odds–and in fairness, starting it now has the advantage of making it harder for scum to game the false information they reveal. > [@](#): > > This is 100% false and isn’t even an argument. One of the best things that a non-powerful villager can do is leave good cover and draw a kill. I know you guys play differently around here and I get that, but leaving seer cover is a tried and true method of extending the lifespan of the real seer and forcing the wolves to provide additional info for the village via the night kills (which are presumably seer hunts). We have what sometimes appears to be a track record around here of this kind of thing being poorly done enough such that it makes it EASIER for the wolves to find the seers. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/156 "2011-08-17T18:20:49Z")
What about night actions that happen to you? (that’s a really clunky way of putting it but hopefully you know what I mean) i.e. Scum presumably won’t reveal anything that happened to them (or else will lie). Should town tell all? Or is it too much of a risk of helping scum find out their roles. That’s presuming roles with effects that the person targeted finds out about of course. ---
**Author:** ![Krayz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba9def/32.png) [@Krayz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krayz)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/157 "2011-08-17T18:21:39Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > It’s not an injoke, but neither is it quite a ‘hard and fast’ rule. It is, however, a ‘general’ rule 'round these parts. The thought being that Town has enough problems with the Scum lying to them, so they shouldn’t compound the issue by lying to each other. Of course, there are exceptions…but around here something like ‘fakepeeking’ is generally considered anathema. I’m from another forum. Lynch All Liars is basically an injoke. for instance, if I said FRIST on my first post in this thread it would be a lie. Then someone would say ‘not the first post, lynch all liars vote: krayz’ and lolz would be had. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/158 "2011-08-17T18:22:04Z")
@ **NAF** Too many times I have had an epiphany “Look guys I thought of a GREAT Idea” And could not wait to present it. Upon review my GREAT idea had flaws I had not seen the first go round. Atleast D1 will be not as flailing- we get to sort out some cultural differences ( Conversation IS Information) Thinking out loud here My reasoning I can either \*’act out’ at the players I find the most questionable until I think I know what I ‘do’ - ‘act out at’ the players I think Scum are going to attack and hope I’m not a Vig or a Roleblocker \*ask “someone” (snicker) I’m leaning toward the first at this stage NOT sending in a target is worse than not voting IMO ( I Don’t consider that an option) In that case I would still have performed the act I don’t know what is on a target that I don’t know who is. With NO verified results. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/159 "2011-08-17T18:23:16Z")
> [@bufftabby](#): > > The biggest problem I see with **NAF** ’s idea involves the rule about no two-Nights-in-a-row targets. That lets scum know who _won’t_ be hit the next Night by the individual powers, and I see a strong possibility for this list to help scum Night action strategy disproportionately. Ooh, good catch. I keep forgetting about the no-two-in-a-row rule. ---
**Author:** ![MykBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@MykBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MykBot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025/160 "2011-08-17T18:25:10Z")
Zeriel, you’re not taking into account the fact that scum can coordinate their night actions way way way more easily than we can. That was their biggest advantage in the first game. Scum got owned in the first game, eventually, but it wasn’t because we were outing our roles until far later in the game. Someone mentioned mass claims, that works well in this format at some point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mystery-mafia-game-thread/593025.md?page=9)