# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/201 "2010-11-27T05:02:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why would relations between a unified Korea and China be any worse tahn relations between Japan and China? Perhaps not all hugs and kisses but I don’t see any natural antagonism there. That’s a really bad example. There is no love lost between China and Japan; there is a feeling in Asia that Japan hasn’t apologized and repented for its actions that doesn’t exist in Europe towards Germany. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/202 "2010-11-27T05:43:16Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I know I’m always suspicious about these things, but do you recall the “I Am a Communist” thread a short while back? He sounds awfully familiar. Accusations of being a sock puppet should be taken up privately with the staff and not announced publicly. (This is particularly true when the implied accusation is being lodged against the very same user. We generally do not consider it sock puppetry when a poster posts similar statements under the very same username.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/203 "2010-11-27T06:11:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What would you call the decision of the north to not be bound by the treaties that ended hostilities? > > I would still say that killing sailors, soldiers and civilians is beyond provocative, it is reckless. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/world/asia/29korea.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/world/asia/29korea.html) I’m not going to defend North Korea. I think they are a bad actor but things may not be as one sided as people seem to think. First of all, shooting artillery into someone else’s territory is an aggressive act, in this case, I believe the waters are contested. South Korea claims most of the water off the shore of North Korea and North Korea thinks they own everything above the 38th parallel. Its provocative no matter how you look at it. They weren’t trying to find out if their guns still worked, they were lobbing artillery into contested waters to show they could. If your point is that NK is a bad regime, then I totally agree with you but some of the sentiment on this board indicated that people thought this was some random act of unprovoked violence on innocent SK civilians. This was not the case. Its more complicated than that the reason for the complication arises from BOTH sides. Like I said, the tenor of relations between North and South Korea has shifted dramatically since they elected their current Presidnet who abandoned the sunshine policy in favor of a more confrontational policy a policy that is contrary to agreements made at summits between Kim Jong Il and South Korea’s two prior presidents. So perhaps to NK, it appears that it is SK that is reneging on its agreements. In any event its more complicated than NK = always wrong about everything. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/204 "2010-11-27T06:13:16Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Woah you have that very very wrong. There is a lot of distrust and prejudice both ways between China and Japan and also border conflicts over Senkaku Islands. Japan also maintains non government but actually quite strong relations with Taiwan. Yeah I understand the history between Japan and almost every other asian nation pretty well. Everyone hates Japan but China has not attacked Japan have they? ANd I posit that relations between CHina and Korea would be better than relations between CHina and japan (a LOT better). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/205 "2010-11-27T06:37:18Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Yes, I have heard of the [Sunshine Policy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_policy) - it was a policy that began in large part due to a bribe of several hundred million dollars to North Korea by South Korea. It also did not stop a naval skirmish in 2002 from happening, nor did it stop North Korea from continuing to work on nuclear weapons the whole time. Despite the North making the 1992 denuclearization agreement with the South. The original intent of the policy seemed to be about both Koreas treating each other as equals instead of rivals and working together. It was ultimately a failure because the North will never view the South’s government as legitimate or friendly so long as their very governmental system (anything but a dictatorship) demonstrates a more free and economically sustainable system than the North’s. I think you need to read your own link. Noone thinks that sunshine policy is based on the notion that NK is just misunderstood, its based on the notion that you might get further with North Korea with humanitarian aid and diplomacy than with threats and military brinksmanship. Part of the sunshine policy was a commitment to provide humanitarian aid to NK during the famine with no strings attached. Is this the hundred million dollar bribe you are talking about? Providing humanitarian aid to a famine ravaged neighbor without demanding concessions in exchange for the humanitarian aid? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/206 "2010-11-27T06:39:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > No I think you are misunderstanding, IIRC one report said that the commander made a lame response because he did not want to start a new Korean war. And in the end they fired on them anyways. Its not rocket science, if you get fired upon, you get to fire back, I think this is rules of engagement 101. > [@](#): > > And that still does not make the North to be on the right or to be justified for what they are doing now. I don’t remember ever saying that NK were the good guys. My point is that they were in fact provoked. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/207 "2010-11-27T06:43:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So NK can hold SK hostage and threaten murderous violence if dreadful attacks upon innocent H[sub]2[/sub]O are carried out. How reasonable. Reminds me of a guy I knew I high school who would threaten to punch people if they did things like hum songs he didn’t like, and then if he hit them he’d say he wasn’t to blame since, after all, he’d warned them. > > At the time I thought he was a petulant asshole, but it turns out that he was just using the North Korean School of Diplomacy. You seem to think that firing artillery into someone else’s territory is no big deal. Sovereignty is a serious issue to some people. > [@](#): > > Indeed. Just like when that guy I knew in high school would punch someone, they were partially to blame, too. I mean, what would the world be coming to when civilized nations of the world no longer hold to the belief that killing human beings is a reasonable response to splashy-splashy in disputed waters? Its an issue of sovereignty. If the USSR held war games in the Bering Strait and fired into Alaskan waters, we might have responded similarly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/208 "2010-11-27T06:46:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This ignores that before rockets **actually fell in Israeli territory and civilians died** (real history). Had they had fallen only in the water (imaginary history) then if the Israeli army attacked Lebanon and kill Lebanese just for that, Israel would had been the party that was rightfully condemned. Are you under the impression that North Koreans have never died from South Korean artillery? There was a war in the 1950s where this happened for a couple of years. I’m not going to keep defending NK, if you guys want to keep seeing the world so black and white that you don’t see how any reasonable person would see an attack on sovereignty as a basis for military action then there’s really no point in trying to convince anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/209 "2010-11-27T06:48:57Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > And just to follow up on that, at [virtually](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/world/asia/09iht-korea.1.20695833.html) [every](http://www.theage.com.au/world/north-korea-threat-over-us-war-games-20100724-10pow.html) [joint US-S. Korean](http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-08-10-1051700533_x.htm) exercises that take place, North Korea issues threats and promises of retaliation or full-scale war. I doubt the previous defense minister dismissed the possibility that on the occasion of South Korea’s own artillery exercise that North Korea would act on their threats, but like the boy who cried wolf, Pyongyang has a habit of routinely communicating in threats that ultimately are not followed up on. So the fact that they never actually carried out their threats acts as some sort of estoppel. They are no longer allowed to actually carry out their threats? I don’t think I understand what you are trying to say because that couldn’t be what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/210 "2010-11-27T06:49:59Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > That’s a really bad example. There is no love lost between China and Japan; there is a feeling in Asia that Japan hasn’t apologized and repented for its actions that doesn’t exist in Europe towards Germany. Yeah, I’m familiar and China hasn’t attacked Japan yet so what is the basis of believing that they would attack a unified Korea? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/211 "2010-11-27T07:17:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you under the impression that North Koreans have never died from South Korean artillery? There was a war in the 1950s where this happened for a couple of years. :rolleyes: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not going to keep defending NK, if you guys want to keep seeing the world so black and white that you don’t see how any reasonable person would see an attack on sovereignty as a basis for military action then there’s really no point in trying to convince anyone. Any military reprisal (Shelling territory, Killing people) that goes overboard and it is not comparable to what the other side did (Shooting at water) would be condemned by me. (And many others are doing so) Trying to obfuscate what is clear is really silly. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/212 "2010-11-27T10:08:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the fact that they never actually carried out their threats acts as some sort of estoppel. They are no longer allowed to actually carry out their threats? I don’t think I understand what you are trying to say because that couldn’t be what you mean. That has nothing to do with what he said. He stated, quite clearly, that due to “crying wolf” so often, NK’s threats aren’t taken seriously or granted any weight more than angry sabre rattling. And of course NK shouldn’t be “allowed” to carry out their threats if their threats include causing the death of SK citizens if empty water is subjected to some splashy-splashy. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You seem to think that firing artillery into someone else’s territory is no big deal. Yes, some splashes in empty water on one occasion are, compared to ending the lives of another nation’s citizens via deliberate and targeted military attack, “no big deal”. That you think we might have started WW III over splashes in the Bering Strait is an alternate history that I don’t think bears scrutiny. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think they are a bad actor but things may not be as one sided as people seem to think They killed human beings, deliberately, in exchange for some splashes in water that they consider theirs. This is by their own description of events. Seems pretty one sided. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > some of the sentiment on this board indicated that people thought this was some random act of unprovoked violence on innocent SK civilians. No, it was a specific act of unprovoked violence upon innocent SK citizens. And that’s the whole point. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you need to read your own link. No, he very clearly read it. And he very clearly described reasons why it was a failure, and you very cleared chose to ignore those reasons and instead use a strawman about NK being “misunderstood”. If the Sunshine Policy didn’t stop NK from continuing to develop nukes (despite treaty obligations) or killing SK sailors in 2002, then what exactly was being _accomplished_ is far less clear. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/213 "2010-11-27T13:30:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you need to read your own link. Noone thinks that sunshine policy is based on the notion that NK is just misunderstood, its based on the notion that you might get further with North Korea with humanitarian aid and diplomacy than with threats and military brinksmanship. It would be easy for South Korea to have relatively peaceful relations with North Korea if they just gave the North whatever they wanted in terms of aid, stopped propaganda loudspeaker broadcasts over the DMZ, generally refrained from criticizing the regime, and gradually distanced itself from the US. Except that approach isn’t diplomacy, it’s complete acquiescence. Is that the price of peace that you are proposing South Korea live with - do whatever the North tells them and/or blackmails them into handing over? Of the two sides, North Korea is the one who is engaging wholesale in threats and military brinkmanship. That is their primary form of diplomacy, when not shuttling over to Beijing or assisting Syria in building a nuclear reactor. Diplomacy, like any sort of negotiations, is a give-and-take, not a blank check on a platter. South Korea certainly isn’t perfect, but saying in effect that South Korea’s policy towards the North needs to be more reasonable is mind-boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/214 "2010-11-27T13:37:16Z")
Still haven’t seen any actual proof that the South Korean military fired into or even towards North Korea before North Korea lobbed some shells onto the South Korean island. To me, that means that North Korea is, yet again, saying they were provoked just for, yet again, another excuse to, yet again, do some damage to South Korea and, yet again, get the whole world jittery and, yet again, the whole world will give the rotters money, food, etc. to keep them from gong out of control, yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/215 "2010-11-27T14:28:13Z")
Is it just me or do all of N. Korea’s announcements sound as though they’ve been run through Babelfish? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/216 "2010-11-27T14:37:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Still haven’t seen any actual proof that the South Korean military fired into or even towards North Korea Perhaps I’ve missed something, but hasn’t NK’s claim all along been that SK deliberately fired into empty water that NK claims as its, and that why its “self defense” was justified? P.S. technical question for the teeming millions: NK’s behavior isn’t really blackmail so much as it’s extortion, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/217 "2010-11-27T14:44:20Z")
One of the posters raised a good point, if the Sunshine policy didn’t produce an effective peace and respect of the Souths borders, then what’s the point of placating them? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/218 "2010-11-27T17:45:41Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > One of the posters raised a good point, if the Sunshine policy didn’t produce an effective peace and respect of the Souths borders, then what’s the point of placating them? What makes you assume that the Sunshine Policy “didn’t produce an effective peace?” I believe it did just that. Through a commitment to non-confrontation and cooperation, the South was very much able to reduce border tensions with the North. At no time was the Peninsula more peaceful than it was under the Sunshine Policy. But all good things come to pass… The South eventually decided to switch back to the Western default of belligerence and cocksure posturing. And guess what? Their militancy finally went too far, and they now appear to have reaped what they sowed. This just goes to show that, sometimes, peace is better than war. Who would have though, huh? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/219 "2010-11-27T17:56:41Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > But all good things come to pass… The South eventually decided to switch back to the Western default of belligerence and cocksure posturing. The context shows that the North disregarded the treaties made then on not developing nuclear weapons. > [@Commissar](#): > > And guess what? Their militancy finally went too far, and they now appear to have reaped what they sowed. This just goes to show that, sometimes, peace is better than war. Who would have though, huh? So far the evidence shows that the North has dismissed treaties, killed sailors, soldiers and civilians. I guess I was correct, early it was affirmed that you are on the fence or willing to wait for evidence. In reality you already had all the answers. IMHO the open dismissal and acts of ignoring treaties is the most damming piece of evidence against the rulers of North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/220 "2010-11-27T18:03:05Z")
Which is why in my previous post I said although rather cruel to contemplate, I’d say waging a war against NK would be in their best interests. It removes the threat once and for all, no more being subject to outright extortion and blackmail, unites the peninsula, and frees thousands upon thousands from those god awful prison camps. And yes, I know thousands of Artillery pieces are aimed squarely at Seoul, and yes thousands of people would die, I guess it comes down to two choices, either satisfy the short term and buy off NK once again and allow the regime to continue to attack whenever it feels like it at the expense of the safety of SK’s own civilian populace, or take concrete steps to actually overthrowing that government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=12)