# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/241 "2010-11-28T20:37:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Mostly outdated? The Il-28 and MiG-17 aren’t outdated, they’re relics from the 1950s. Nope. I’m sure that you’ll be suitably shocked that the North Korean air force includes a wide variety of fighters and bombers, most of them much newer than you seem to believe: > **[Korean People's Army Air Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Air_Force)** > > The Korean People's Army Air Force (KPAF; Korean: 조선인민군 공군, romanized: Chosŏn-inmin'gun konggun; Hanja: 朝鮮人民軍 空軍) is the unified military aviation force of North Korea. It is the second largest branch of the Korean People's Army comprising an estimated 110,000 members. As of 2024, it is estimated to possess some 570 combat aircraft, 200 helicopters, and a few transporters, mostly of decades-old Soviet and Chinese origin. Its primary task is to defend North Korean airspace. > In April 20 The Korean ... Most of it is still somewhat dated, but not from the 1950s. For example, the nation has approximately 40 Mig-29s, which are from the 1980s: > **[Mikoyan MiG-29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29)** > > The Mikoyan MiG-29 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-29; NATO reporting name: Fulcrum) is a twin-engine fighter aircraft designed in the Soviet Union. Developed by the Mikoyan design bureau as an air superiority fighter during the 1970s, the MiG-29, along with the larger Sukhoi Su-27, was developed to counter U.S. fighters such as the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle and the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon. The MiG-29 entered service with the Soviet Air Forces in 1983. > While originally oriented towards c... > [@](#): > > What, 20 Romeo/Project 633s? Again it’s not outdated, it’s from the 1950s. You’re zero for two, my friend. The vast majority of the 20 Romeos used by the North Korean navy were in fact built in North Korea no earlier than the 1970s: > **[Korean People's Navy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Navy)** > > The Korean People's Army Navy (KPANF; Korean: 조선인민군 해군; Hanja: 朝鮮人民軍 海軍; MR: Chosŏn-inmingun Haegun; lit. Korean People's Military Navy) or the Korean People's Navy (KPN) is the naval component of the Korean People's Army, the North Korean armed forces. > There are some 780 vessels including 70 midget submarines (including the Yono-class submarine and Sang-O-class submarine), 20 Romeo-class submarines, and about 140 air cushioned landing craft. > The North Korean navy is considered a brown-water (o... ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/242 "2010-11-28T20:46:06Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Nope. I’m sure that you’ll be suitably shocked that the North Korean air force includes a wide variety of fighters and bombers, most of them much newer than you seem to believe: > > [Korean People's Army Air Force - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Air_Force) > > Most of it is still somewhat dated, but not from the 1950s. For example, the nation has approximately 40 Mig-29s, which are from the 1980s: > > [Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29) > > You’re zero for two, my friend. The vast majority of the 20 Romeos used by the North Korean navy were in fact built in North Korea no earlier than the 1970s: > > [Korean People's Navy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Navy) Dude please, don’t tell me you’re trying to convince us the NK military is something to be reckoned with, it’s not. It can have all the best weapons in the world, but if it’s maintainence is neglected, it’s pretty much becomes a paper army. The NK leadership is aware of this, and this is why it goes to lengths to use its military as a deterrent, rather than anything else. i.e offensive force. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/243 "2010-11-28T20:49:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Afghanistan has a democratically elected government for the first time in memory. If you see it as a quagmire to liberate a people from a brutal regime that attacks school girls because they are not worthy of an education then there is something wrong with you. It is a mutual interest to fight those responsible. First of all, it is not your right to determine what kind of future the Afghanis need. That is a question for them and them alone. Your typical Imperial arrogance sickens and disgusts me. Secondly, agreeing with a war’s aims does not automatically prevent it from being a quagmire. It’s a quagmire not because it’s unjust, but because you’re still getting slaughtered nearly a decade after “victory.” In fact, the brave Afghani freedom fighters are slaughtering more and more of you invaders with each passing year: [http://icasualties.org/OEF/index.aspx](http://icasualties.org/OEF/index.aspx) > [@](#): > > It’s not macho talk, it’s reality. If NK attacks SK it will be a short war. The technological difference is vast as is the infrastructure to support a war. NK is already starving and does not have the logistical capacity to feed a moving army. Their first salvo will be their last. You are seriously misguided. You couldn’t defeat North Korea 50 years ago, and you cannot defeat Afghanistan now… But somehow you would presently magically win a hypothetical war against a well-armed opponent? Right. The Empire is anything but gun-shy; the fact that it hasn’t tried to invade North Korea in half a century should tell you something. And what are you babbling about when you assert that North Korea can’t “feed a moving army?” What, a “moving” army will outrun the food supply? They have trucks, you know. If they can feed a stationary army, they can feed a moving one. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/244 "2010-11-28T21:04:19Z")
Well, there you go. If they could feed anyone, there’d be no problem. Once again, care to guess who’s actually providing the food to the failed state due north of my locale? And the United Nations forces had pretty much defeated the North Korean forces back in the 1950s. Do you know what happened? The Chinese sent massive numbers of troops, ostensibly volunteers but really were no such thing, across the river between China and Korea. No, there’s no if involved here, unless you are incredibly uninformed or, more likely, intentionally misinformed when you purport to live in the US. The UN Command has no worries about utimately winning an actual shooting war against the DPRK. The issue for them, and what the DPRK is relying on, is how much damage will be done to the ROK before that blight, the DPRK, is gone for good. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/245 "2010-11-28T21:39:19Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > First of all, it is not your right to determine what kind of future the Afghanis need. That is a question for them and them alone. And they got to vote for their leadership rather than the Taliban rule-by-force fiefdom that existed so because of our intervention you got your wish. > [@Commissar](#): > > Your typical Imperial arrogance sickens and disgusts me. And you’re 1950’s political rants on communism ignores the abysmal track record communism has had throughout history. that you can ignore the millions of citizens who died under those regimes is mind boggling. Again, if there was any way to insert you into one of those countries it would do wonders for your education. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/246 "2010-11-29T00:06:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > Any military reprisal (Shelling territory, Killing people) that goes overboard and it is not comparable to what the other side did (Shooting at water) would be condemned by me. (And many others are doing so) > > Trying to obfuscate what is clear is really silly. I’m not condoning their actions either. I am just trying to dispel the notion that this was some random act of violence. It was a response to South Korean military exercises that fired artillery into North Korean waters in an environment that has gotten very tense recently. My second point is that while much of the tension is the result of the nuclearization of North Korea, a lot of it is the result of the change in diplomatic posture by South Korea since they elected a conservative government. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/247 "2010-11-29T00:13:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > My second point is that while much of the tension is the result of the nuclearization of North Korea, a lot of it is the result of the change in diplomatic posture by South Korea since they elected a conservative government. In other words, much of the tension is a result of the south refusing to continue being extorted by North Korea while NK violated treaties, attacked the south and nuked up. Much like much of the tension in a mugging is over that stubborn bastard refusing to give up his wallet. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/248 "2010-11-29T00:22:46Z")
That’s my opinion of it. The North threatens and postures, and occasionally does outrageous things, while expecting the South to lie back, take it, and continue to pony up aid and food. (Obviously, if their system was superior, they wouldn’t need it.) Now it’s Blame The Victim time by saying “Well, if the South hadn’t stopped bending over to take it, the North wouldn’t be getting all worked up!” That’s bullshit, clear and simple. Behavior that is rewarded is repeated. Stop rewarding the behavior. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/249 "2010-11-29T00:25:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not condoning their actions either. I am just trying to dispel the notion that this was some random act of violence. It was a response to South Korean military exercises that fired artillery into North Korean waters in an environment that has gotten very tense recently. :rolleyes: And I have to dispel the notion that I said something like that (that it was a random act of violence). I already acknowledged that the South did shot first at the sea that the North claims. Once again the point stands, even if the North is correct on where the shells landed, still the response was beyond what anyone can accept as civilized. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > My second point is that while much of the tension is the result of the nuclearization of North Korea, a lot of it is the result of the change in diplomatic posture by South Korea since they elected a conservative government. I will go here for what \*\*FinnAgain \*\*said. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/250 "2010-11-29T00:29:02Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > That is a question for them and them alone. Your typical Imperial arrogance sickens and disgusts me. Much like the type of governments that _you_ support that suppress and murder their own people _en masse_, effectively making decisions _for them_, sickens me. > [@](#): > > You are seriously misguided. You couldn’t defeat North Korea 50 years ago, and you cannot defeat Afghanistan now… But somehow you would presently magically win a hypothetical war against a well-armed opponent? Right. The Empire is anything but gun-shy; the fact that it hasn’t tried to invade North Korea in half a century should tell you something. > > And what are you babbling about when you assert that North Korea can’t “feed a moving army?” What, a “moving” army will outrun the food supply? They have trucks, you know. If they can feed a stationary army, they can feed a moving one. _You_ are the one that is seriously misguided if you’re comparing Afghanistan to North Korea. We _could_ have defeated North Korea 50 years ago…but thought better of waging a war directly against China once they intervened as we were pushing our way northwards…if MacArthur had had his way, North Korea and parts of China would have been smoking holes of radioactive ash. And why would we have invaded North Korea all these years when everything up until recently was in a nice state of _detente_? They are of no strategic interest to us…and are somewhat tolerated and supported by a major economic trading partner of ours. And furthermore, North Korea gets mass amounts of food from South Korea. Why do you keep dodging that point? Its _South Korea_ that is a peaceful, prosperous nation that is trying to help out the people of the North (read: _not_ the horrible government regime) and most of them probably want a reunification of the peninsula as well, but that’s a pipe dream as long as the Kim family keeps its people in a brainwashed cloud of subjugation. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/251 "2010-11-29T00:49:06Z")
So, the South is at fault because the North is claiming the water around an island the South already occupies and when the South fires shells southward and the shells fall into those waters, it’s an attack on the North. Does that even approach the realm of logic? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/252 "2010-11-29T01:03:48Z")
I’ve been going over the Wikipedia article on the NK Airforce, & it looks grim for Kim. Most of his cr@p would be hard-pressed to outfly a beagle in a Spwith Camel, much less the US Naval Air arm. Whole damn war might be over before we get anything other than Navy & Airborne forces over there. South Korea could **own** these clowns, any Saturday night. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/253 "2010-11-29T01:18:55Z")
[http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes](http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes) This might actually be more useful than wikipedia. The gentleman who wrote this spent a long time doing photoanalysis of Google Earth results, and has largely pinpointed most NK artillery pieces. It’s… actually not quite as bad for South Korea as I thought. It might be possible to stomp them if SK attacked first. Maybe. There’s a detailed analysis of North Korea’s air force and their artillery corps, which is very educational. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/254 "2010-11-29T01:44:16Z")
The deal is that, unlike North Korea, the South long ago committed to not attacking first. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/255 "2010-11-29T02:00:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That has nothing to do with what he said. He stated, quite clearly, that due to “crying wolf” so often, NK’s threats aren’t taken seriously or granted any weight more than angry sabre rattling. Yeah and that idea was being used to defend why the South Koreans weren’t prepared. My point is that no matter how many times North Korea bluffs, you can’t lob artillery shells into their territory and be unprepared for some sort of retaliation. > [@](#): > > And of course NK shouldn’t be “allowed” to carry out their threats if their threats include causing the death of SK citizens if empty water is subjected to some splashy-splashy. I don’t know if you truly didn’t understand what I was saying and thought I literally meant that I approved of what NK did or if you are being deliberately obtuse. > [@](#): > > Yes, some splashes in empty water on one occasion are, compared to ending the lives of another nation’s citizens via deliberate and targeted military attack, “no big deal”. The measurement isn’t subjective. Either shooting artillery into someone else’s territory is or is not a big deal. Once again, I don’t condone anything NK did but once again, this wasn’t some random act of violence. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13176014&postcount=72](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13176014&postcount=72) > [@](#): > > That you think we might have started WW III over splashes in the Bering Strait is an alternate history that I don’t think bears scrutiny. I don’t remember saying anything about WWIII. So you think that we wouldn’t really give a shit if Russia started lobbing shells into our side of the Bering strait, less than 10 miles from Alaskan land. Good to know. > [@](#): > > They killed human beings, deliberately, in exchange for some splashes in water that they consider theirs. This is by their own description of events. > Seems pretty one sided. Well its not. Once again, I don’t condone anything NK did but they warned SK that they would attack if they did that splishy splashy thing, SK went ahead and went splish splash and NK sent some artillery shells at a SK military base and killed two soldiers and two civilians. I’m not excusing what NK did but they were provoked, SK wasn’t doing something that was “well within it rights” they were thumbing their nose at NK and NK stuck their finger in SK eye. SK can now turn around and kick NK in the groin and so forth and so on but that is not a one sided argument. > [@](#): > > No, it was a specific act of unprovoked violence upon innocent SK citizens. > And that’s the whole point. It was not unprovoked and it was against a military base. I don’t excuse NK’s actions but there are two sides to this argument, even SK media wonders out loud why SK was shooting artillery into contested territory. THEIR media wonders whether the current administration is to blame for the deterioration of relations between NK and SK. > [@](#): > > No, he very clearly read it. And he very clearly described reasons why it was a failure, and you very cleared chose to ignore those reasons and instead use a strawman about NK being “misunderstood”. If the Sunshine Policy didn’t stop NK from continuing to develop nukes (despite treaty obligations) or killing SK sailors in 2002, then what exactly was being _accomplished_ is far less clear. From the article: “The main aim of the policy was to soften North Korea’s attitudes towards the South by encouraging interaction and economic assistance.” I don’t see where it says that the purpose of the sunshine policy was based on NK nuclear program. That sounds like projection to me. You WANT it to be about NK nuclear program but the sunshine policy achieved quite a bit. The industrial park in NK has factories owned and oerated by Samsung, LG, Daewoo and almost every other large SK company. NK opened its most prominent tourist attractions to SK citizens for the first time in half a century. SK citizens were able to visit long lost relatives on the NK side for the first time since war broke out in 1950. Relations between NK and SK were getting considerably warmer stoking speculation about reunification and the opening of NK. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/256 "2010-11-29T02:06:39Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Nope. I’m sure that you’ll be suitably shocked that the North Korean air force includes a wide variety of fighters and bombers, most of them much newer than you seem to believe: > > [Korean People's Army Air Force - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Air_Force) You’re joking, right? Over half their inventory is MiG-17s, Il-28s, Su-7, J-5 ( a Chinese MiG-17 knockoff), and J-6s (Chinese MiG-19 knockoff). These were state of the art in Soviet aviation **in the 1950s**. > [@](#): > > You’re zero for two, my friend. The vast majority of the 20 Romeos used by the North Korean navy were in fact built in North Korea no earlier than the 1970s: If you’d just gone one more click on wiki you’d see that the [Romeo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_class) is a Soviet design from the 1950s: > [@](#): > > The Romeo class (Project 633) is a class of Soviet diesel-electric submarine, built in 1950s. The origin of the Romeo class can be traced to the World War II German Type XXI Elektroboot U-boat. At the end of World War II, the Soviets obtained several Type XXIs, from which they were able to obtain certain key technologies. These technologies assisted in the design of the Zulu- and Whiskey-class. Further improvements on the design led to the Romeo class. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/257 "2010-11-29T02:08:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That has nothing to do with what he said. He stated, quite clearly, that due to “crying wolf” so often, NK’s threats aren’t taken seriously or granted any weight more than angry sabre rattling. Yeah and that idea was being used to defend why the South Koreans weren’t prepared. My point is that no matter how many times North Korea bluffs, you can’t lob artillery shells into their territory and be unprepared for some sort of retaliation. > [@](#): > > And of course NK shouldn’t be “allowed” to carry out their threats if their threats include causing the death of SK citizens if empty water is subjected to some splashy-splashy. I don’t know if you truly didn’t understand what I was saying and thought I literally meant that I approved of what NK did or if you are being deliberately obtuse. > [@](#): > > Yes, some splashes in empty water on one occasion are, compared to ending the lives of another nation’s citizens via deliberate and targeted military attack, “no big deal”. The measurement isn’t subjective. Either shooting artillery into someone else’s territory is or is not a big deal. Once again, I don’t condone anything NK did but once again, this wasn’t some random act of violence. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13176014&postcount=72](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13176014&postcount=72) > [@](#): > > That you think we might have started WW III over splashes in the Bering Strait is an alternate history that I don’t think bears scrutiny. I don’t remember saying anything about WWIII. So you think that we wouldn’t really give a shit if Russia started lobbing shells into our side of the Bering strait, less than 10 miles from Alaskan land. Good to know. > [@](#): > > They killed human beings, deliberately, in exchange for some splashes in water that they consider theirs. This is by their own description of events. > Seems pretty one sided. Well its not. Once again, I don’t condone anything NK did but they warned SK that they would attack if they did that splishy splashy thing, SK went ahead and went splish splash and NK sent some artillery shells at a SK military base and killed two soldiers and two civilians. I’m not excusing what NK did but they were provoked, SK wasn’t doing something that was “well within it rights” they were thumbing their nose at NK and NK stuck their finger in SK eye. SK can now turn around and kick NK in the groin and so forth and so on but that is not a one sided argument. > [@](#): > > No, it was a specific act of unprovoked violence upon innocent SK citizens. > And that’s the whole point. It was not unprovoked and it was against a military base. I don’t excuse NK’s actions but there are two sides to this argument, even SK media wonders out loud why SK was shooting artillery into contested territory. THEIR media wonders whether the current administration is to blame for the deterioration of relations between NK and SK. > [@](#): > > No, he very clearly read it. And he very clearly described reasons why it was a failure, and you very cleared chose to ignore those reasons and instead use a strawman about NK being “misunderstood”. If the Sunshine Policy didn’t stop NK from continuing to develop nukes (despite treaty obligations) or killing SK sailors in 2002, then what exactly was being _accomplished_ is far less clear. From the article: “The main aim of the policy was to soften North Korea’s attitudes towards the South by encouraging interaction and economic assistance.” I don’t see where it says that the purpose of the sunshine policy was based on NK nuclear program. That sounds like projection to me. You WANT it to be about NK nuclear program but the sunshine policy achieved quite a bit. The industrial park in NK has factories owned and oerated by Samsung, LG, Daewoo and almost every other large SK company. NK opened its most prominent tourist attractions to SK citizens for the first time in half a century. SK citizens were able to visit long lost relatives on the NK side for the first time since war broke out in 1950. Relations between NK and SK were getting considerably warmer stoking speculation about reunification and the opening of NK. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/258 "2010-11-29T02:11:43Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > It would be easy for South Korea to have relatively peaceful relations with North Korea if they just gave the North whatever they wanted in terms of aid, stopped propaganda loudspeaker broadcasts over the DMZ, generally refrained from criticizing the regime, and gradually distanced itself from the US. Except that approach isn’t diplomacy, it’s complete acquiescence. Is that the price of peace that you are proposing South Korea live with - do whatever the North tells them and/or blackmails them into handing over? > > Of the two sides, North Korea is the one who is engaging wholesale in threats and military brinkmanship. That is their primary form of diplomacy, when not shuttling over to Beijing or assisting Syria in building a nuclear reactor. Diplomacy, like any sort of negotiations, is a give-and-take, not a blank check on a platter. South Korea certainly isn’t perfect, but saying in effect that South Korea’s policy towards the North needs to be more reasonable is mind-boggling. How about just continuing the sunshine policy? SK citizens were pretty happy with that policy and the results it was getting. If anything I have said indicates I am taking NK’s side over SK then I must not be communicating very well or failing to convey the not so subtle nuance I am trying to convey. NK is a failing state that is undergoing a succession crisis and the current SK administration’s militaristic attitude is tipping an already unstable sitUATION. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/259 "2010-11-29T02:24:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The deal is that, unlike North Korea, the South long ago committed to not attacking first. I’d forgive them for breaking that commitment. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/260 "2010-11-29T02:26:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Still haven’t seen any actual proof that the South Korean military fired into or even towards North Korea before North Korea lobbed some shells onto the South Korean island. To me, that means that North Korea is, yet again, saying they were provoked just for, yet again, another excuse to, yet again, do some damage to South Korea and, yet again, get the whole world jittery and, yet again, the whole world will give the rotters money, food, etc. to keep them from gong out of control, yet again. South Korean media confirms that the SK military exercise involved shooting artillery into contested waters (almost all the water surrounding that military base is contested). Sending food aid is something that happens regardless of how crazy they act. Most nations do not condition humanitarian aid on the behaviour of the government. If Cuba was in famine, we would ship them food, if Iran’s people were suffering famine or suffering the aftermath of a deadly earthquake, we would send them food and aid. The one area where we do “bribe” them is we offer them alternative technology (I think we gave them the technology for light water nuclear reactors, the kind that you can’t use to create nukes) and may have even offered to build it for them) to get them to stop pursuing their nuclear ambitions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=14)