# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/341 "2010-12-02T22:09:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You didn’t actually read that article, did you? Well, if he did read it, he read it with some kind of mental filter that disregards facts. > [@](#): > > So…a single shell was accidentally (or even on purpose if you insist) fired into the DMZ and landed 14 kilometers north of the NK army base, hitting nothing and killing no one. **South** Korean base. It landed on the South Korean side of the DMZ. > [@](#): > > And you truly see no difference between the two incidents? You feel that they are on par with each other? Truly? Because anything a non-communist does, even if they harm nobody at all, is evil while anything a purported communist does, even if they kill someone, is peachy keen. You don’t see the logic of that position? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/342 "2010-12-02T22:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] South Korean base. It landed on the South Korean side of the DMZ. [/QUOTE] :smack: Oh…I thought it meant that the shell fell 14k from an NK base in the DMZ. I see that I misread that as well. > [@](#): > > Because anything a non-communist does, even if they harm nobody at all, is evil while anything a purported communist does, even if they kill someone, is peachy keen. You don’t see the logic of that position? Heck, I didn’t see the logic of the position even when I thought the base was an NK base. It makes even less sense now that you pointed out that I misread it as well, and for the life of me I can’t figure out what point Commissar thought s/he was making, or how s/he thought this cite would bolster their case… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/343 "2010-12-02T22:38:39Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Which is all well and good, but misses the point by a wide margin. **Monty** alleged that the shooting is attributable to North Korea. Yet there is nothing to indicate that the shooter had any connections at all to the North Korean government. Being sympathetic to country X does not make one its agent, nor does it make country X responsible for one’s actions. Your point was that since the assassin was living in Japan prior to the attempt on the South Korean president’s life, it was just as likely that he was somehow a Japanese agent. Which, to reference your earlier statement decrying conclusions not in context, ignores the history and geopolitics of the Korean community in Japan since WWII. > [@](#): > > That question is unanswerable. North Korea prefers to remain secretive in its internal affairs, so we cannot know how many soldiers have been killed by Southern fire. Or whether any civilians were slaughtered by the South’s salvo during the latest incident. Then your argument that some or all of **Monty** ’s list of aggressive and violent actions by North Korea is irrelevant and can be dismissed, since 1) none of the events on the list were actually mere shooting incidents at the DMZ and 2) because there is no evidence that the South Korean military has intentionally started any “shooting” incidents at the DMZ in the numerous ways that North Korean forces have. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/344 "2010-12-02T23:11:13Z")
You forgot something, **Camus**. Commissar’s assertion that my list of questions is unanswerable is false unless you do not consider the free press in South Korea as a valid source. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/345 "2010-12-02T23:54:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > for the life of me I can’t figure out what point Commissar thought s/he was making, or how s/he thought this cite would bolster their case… It seems to be something like arguing that obviously NK is telling the truth as SK are still engaging in belligerent ‘shelling’, and dishonestly hiding their warmongering by claiming it was an accident when obviously they aimed at dropping a round onto their own side of the DMZ and doing no damage to anybody at all. Because capitalists are just that fucking crazy and violent. I think. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/346 "2010-12-03T00:01:03Z")
If so, then Commissar has a truly dizzying intellect… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/347 "2010-12-03T00:04:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > That question is unanswerable. North Korea prefers to remain secretive in its internal affairs, so we cannot know how many soldiers have been killed by Southern fire. Or whether any civilians were slaughtered by the South’s salvo during the latest incident. Give me a break. Do you believe that if a North Korean soldier got so much as a cut finger from picking up an empty can of South Korean beer, or if North Korean mermen and mermaids had been killed during the latest incident, that fact would not be trumpeted to the hills? Your detachment from reality is simply astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/348 "2010-12-03T00:09:40Z")
Tone down the personal remarks, please. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/349 "2010-12-03T00:13:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Heck, I didn’t see the logic of the position even when I thought the base was an NK base. It makes even less sense now that you pointed out that I misread it as well, and for the life of me I can’t figure out what point Commissar thought s/he was making, or how s/he thought this cite would bolster their case… > > -XT The link was for the benefit of F **innAgain** and those of a similar persuasion - namely, people that see this whole scenario as a black-and-white tale of a demonic North and an angelic South. As the link demonstrates, the truth is much more of a grey area. Both sides engage in repetitive acts of aggression and provocation, some accidental, some less so. Clear-cut villains and heroes exist in Disney movies; in the real world, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/350 "2010-12-03T00:17:19Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Your point was that since the assassin was living in Japan prior to the attempt on the South Korean president’s life, it was just as likely that he was somehow a Japanese agent. Which, to reference your earlier statement decrying conclusions not in context, ignores the history and geopolitics of the Korean community in Japan since WWII. Thank you for trying to put words in my mouth, but no. My point is quite simple: **Monty** explicitly attributed the shooting to North Korea. There is nothing tying the shooting to North Korea. In fact, the shooter had ties to Japan and South Korea, but not to North Korea. Ergo, an assertion that the shooter acted on the orders of the North Korean government is nothing but an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/351 "2010-12-03T00:22:52Z")
> [@prediction](#): > > SK are still engaging in belligerent ‘shelling’, and dishonestly hiding their warmongering by claiming it was an accident when obviously they aimed at dropping a round onto their own side of the DMZ and doing no damage to anybody at all. [QUOTE=statement] As the link demonstrates, the truth is much more of a grey area. Both sides engage in repetitive acts of aggression and provocation, some accidental, some less so. [/QUOTE] Called it. As for angels and such, rather obviously that’s a strawman. But it’s telling that Commissar still hasn’t addressed the fact that in NK’s own words they ended human lives “in self defense” because of splashes in the water, and that somehow we can still trust any other claim in the same press release that mangles the concept of self defense so thoroughly. Of course, it’s pretty easy to see that a tyrannical, dictatorial regime which starves its own people to death, represents is own leader as a living god and has engaged in numerous acts of military aggression not only has less credibility than standard, but is not on the same level of “belligerence” as another nation that has recently committed grave offenses against dirt _and_ grass _and_ innocent sea water. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/352 "2010-12-03T00:24:44Z")
And once again Commissar ignores facts. **tomndebb** pegged you perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/353 "2010-12-03T00:26:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Called it. Sure did. > [@](#): > > another nation that has recently committed grave offenses against dirt _and_ grass _and_ innocent sea water. Against dirt _and_ grass _and_ innocent sea water on their own side of the line! The horror! The inhumanity! But the real question here is why does Commissar defend North Korea so much after maligning them as not true communists recently? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/354 "2010-12-03T01:02:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > But the real question here is why does Commissar defend North Korea so much after maligning them as not true communists recently? I suppose it comes from my philosophical commitment to justice. True, I dislike the North Korean corruption of Marxist-Leninist thought, its bizarre and sickening embrace of a monarchical approach to governance, and its inability to fix its blighted and stagnant economy. At the same time, I find that the Western tendency to demonize them at every opportunity to be highly unfair. The nation and its government are highly flawed, but this does not mean that they can be held responsible for each and every incident that they are involved in. As I keep saying, the world is not that black and white. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/355 "2010-12-03T01:04:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Against dirt _and_ grass _and_ innocent sea water on their own side of the line! That explains it. All along we’ve thought that North Korea was an autocratic hell hole run by a megalomaniac tyrant. But, really, they’re a nation of eco-terrorists. It all becomes clear. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/356 "2010-12-03T01:39:29Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] The link was for the benefit of FinnAgain and those of a similar persuasion - namely, people that see this whole scenario as a black-and-white tale of a demonic North and an angelic South. As the link demonstrates, the truth is much more of a grey area. Both sides engage in repetitive acts of aggression and provocation, some accidental, some less so. Clear-cut villains and heroes exist in Disney movies; in the real world, not so much. [/QUOTE] This is just handwaving. Certainly no one is saying the South Koreans are the font of all goodness and light, but clearly there is a demarcation of good verse evil here. One side has routinely starved their population into submission, and has relied on handouts to prevent even more starvation, while spending what little money they have on building up a ridiculously over armed military…while the other has not. One side locks up literally 10’s of thousands of their citizens into concentration camps where some large non-zero percentage of them die…the other side has not. One side has routinely been belligerently aggressive, and has used the fact that they illegally have developed nuclear weapons as a threat and blackmail while the other side has attempted (unsuccessfully) to appease them with large monetary bribes. And in THIS incident, one side fired artillery shells into waters they claim, while the other side chose to fire on a village full of civilians, killing several of them. That you can’t see the difference is because you are either blind, ideologically set in your ways, or simply haven’t been paying attention to events in the region for the last 50 or so years. Certainly in the real world things are often shades of gray, and as I said, the SK’s aren’t and haven’t been completely pure as the driven snow, but anyone paying even the remotest attention is going to see that one of the sides in this is MUCH better than the other, on the good verses evil continuum… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/357 "2010-12-03T01:50:40Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I suppose it comes from my philosophical commitment to justice. Care to explain how the recent incident, along with the list you handwaved off, constitute justice? That should be enlightening (or at least another 12-letter word with just six letters changed from that one). No doubt you’re going to use your special dictionary, the one where you rewrite the definitions, to bolster your response. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/358 "2010-12-03T02:11:50Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Or [shoot outs](http://articles.cnn.com/1996-11-05/world/9611_05_korea_1_kangnung-infiltrators-south-korean-troops?_s=PM:WORLD) with North Korean special forces when their mini-sub grounded in South Korea, or [digging tunnels](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/kpa-tunnels.htm) under the DMZ or [abducting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese) Japanese civilians or attacking ships in [international waters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)) or - well, it’s almost hard to find an end. And a [Thai lady who was abducted](http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Thailand+urges+N.+Korea+to+resolve+abduction+issue+in+ARF+meeting.-a0149211645) in Macau in 1978. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/359 "2010-12-03T02:38:40Z")
Hey, maybe it was justice that the North kidnapped a famous South Korean actress and a famous South Korean director. Why shouldn’t North Koreans get some decent entertainment too? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/360 "2010-12-03T03:54:06Z")
New reality show: “North Korea’s got talent - can they escape?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=19)