# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/21 "2010-11-23T15:43:23Z")
Hopefully, this is just a border skirmish that won’t escalate. Then again, it could be the start of Ragnorak. If the fuckers keep at it long enough to cause breaking news interruptions in the Egg Bowl or Iron Bowl later this week, I say nuke em all. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/22 "2010-11-23T15:53:25Z")
I would say that it all depends on China, and on whether North Korea has exhausted its patience. I would also say that it looks as if China’s tolerance of North Korea is running out, though. They only appear to keep it around because they need it as a buffer zone against South Korea and, by extension, the U.S. I have the feeling that, if North Korea went genuinely apeshit, the Chinese army would be in Pyongyang before you could blink. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/23 "2010-11-23T15:59:31Z")
Every time NK rattles a saber, I have to wonder if it’s just because Kim Jong-il’s advisors are informing him the economy is on the verge of collapse. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/24 "2010-11-23T16:04:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > In before the end of the world. > (If anyone ever checks the google archive after humanity gets re-started following the coming nuclear war, I want the record to reflect that I posted in this thread.) Hey **Randy** , I hope you don’t find this too forward… it’s just that I don’t think we’re going to make it out of this, and I’ve never been with a man before… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/25 "2010-11-23T16:53:48Z")
Here is the closest I can get to unbiased reports. The South Korean was conducting military exercises in near North Korean waters (some sort of show of force, I guess). Then the North Koreans showed up and t proceeded to fire at a South korean military base where some of the military drills were being held. They claim that the military exercises had fired into North Korean waters North Korea has nukes so they can get away with anything sort of an invasion. The speculation is that North Korea is trying to stir up a lot of international media attack against North korea to scare their population into supporting their government without creating enough outrage that people forget that they have nukes (crappy ones but nukes nonetheless). 4 years ago, relations between north and south were dramatically improving (the sunshine policy revived hopes of a unified korea and resulted in a South Korean industrial park in Kaesang, North Korea) when an economic recession convinced the South Korean to vote for conservatives. The conservatives have been talking tough on North Korea (some suspect that this is to divert attention from the STILL sluggish economy). So between the new belligerence from South Korea and the instability in north Korea, some think that conflisct was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/26 "2010-11-23T16:57:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Every time NK rattles a saber, I have to wonder if it’s just because Kim Jong-il’s advisors are informing him the economy is on the verge of collapse. This and similar comments seem to indicate a general assumption that North Korea started this particular exchange. I, for one, am not completely convinced that it wasn’t the South (and its Imperial US overlords) that fired the first volley. It is sloppy thinking to attempt to deduce truth from stereotypes and biases. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/27 "2010-11-23T17:02:14Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > This and similar comments seem to indicate a general assumption that North Korea started this particular exchange. Well, it’s not without precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/28 "2010-11-23T17:03:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Here is the closest I can get to unbiased reports. > > The South Korean was conducting military exercises in near North Korean waters (some sort of show of force, I guess). Then the North Koreans showed up and t proceeded to fire at a South korean military base where some of the military drills were being held. They claim that the military exercises had fired into North Korean waters > > North Korea has nukes so they can get away with anything sort of an invasion. > > The speculation is that North Korea is trying to stir up a lot of international media attack against North korea to scare their population into supporting their government without creating enough outrage that people forget that they have nukes (crappy ones but nukes nonetheless). > > 4 years ago, relations between north and south were dramatically improving (the sunshine policy revived hopes of a unified korea and resulted in a South Korean industrial park in Kaesang, North Korea) when an economic recession convinced the South Korean to vote for conservatives. The conservatives have been talking tough on North Korea (some suspect that this is to divert attention from the STILL sluggish economy). > > So between the new belligerence from South Korea and the instability in north Korea, some think that conflisct was inevitable. I thought the leading line of thinking was that since we weren’t paying attention to NK, even when they showed off their reactor, they needed to act a little crazy to get us back to the table and give them supplies to feed their populace during the coming winter. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/29 "2010-11-23T17:04:10Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > This and similar comments seem to indicate a general assumption that North Korea started this particular exchange. I, for one, am not completely convinced that it wasn’t the South (and its Imperial US overlords) that fired the first volley. It is sloppy thinking to attempt to deduce truth from stereotypes and biases. It’s certainly _possible_ the South fired first - but we’ve seen no indication of that. And the South, unlike the North, enjoys a free and vigorous press - if the South were the agressors, we’d expect to find that out. Further, this is part of a pattern of North Korean aggression - consider the unprovoked attack on a South Korean warship, the development of nuclear weapons, and so on. The North Korean state has acted so badly over the past several years that it can hardly demand the benefit of the doubt now. And for that matter, there are sound political reasons (from the NK perspective) to launch this sort of attack - it can be spun as a military victory and attributed to Kim’s son, thus helping to legitimize his transition into power over the next few years. One can be an ardent Communist and still acknowledge that avowedly Communist states are poorly run and bad actors on the international stage. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/30 "2010-11-23T17:07:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it’s not without precedent. Sure - except that the “precedent” was _also_ based on taking South Korea’s version of the story over North Korea’s. Every time the two sides exchange fire, both blame the other, and Western media sources (and Westerners in general) immediately side with the South. That seems like an untenable position to take (“The South is our colony and our pet; they can do no wrong, so they’re not at fault”). I say that we wait for independently-verified facts to emerge before assigning blame. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/31 "2010-11-23T17:39:21Z")
It’s unclear, though, where these independently-verified facts are supposed to come from, though. Interviews with front-line soldiers from both sides? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/32 "2010-11-23T17:45:55Z")
Obviously they will have to come from North Korea’s well known and eagle eyed news media. It will be the only way to be sure, since the South Korean’s have duped the rest of the worlds media. I await the independent verification of South Korean treachery with baited (or even bated) breath… -XT ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/33 "2010-11-23T17:47:00Z")
The balance of possibilities appears to be, nonetheless, that North Korea was the first to deliberately shell the territory of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/34 "2010-11-23T17:51:45Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I thought the leading line of thinking was that since we weren’t paying attention to NK, even when they showed off their reactor, they needed to act a little crazy to get us back to the table and give them supplies to feed their populace during the coming winter. Yeah that’s part of it. North korea has become dependent on foreign aid to feed their populace. To some extent we have conditioned them to engage in this sort of behaviour. But how is this year different than any other year? Its the instability in North Korea and the antagonism from the current South Korean administration. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/35 "2010-11-23T17:52:40Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > This and similar comments seem to indicate a general assumption that North Korea started this particular exchange. I, for one, am not completely convinced that it wasn’t the South (and its Imperial US overlords) that fired the first volley. It is sloppy thinking to attempt to deduce truth from stereotypes and biases. Aside from general skepticism. which I approve of, are you aware of any past incidents (say in the last 20 years or so) in which S Korea fired the first shots, or swung the first axes? I did see more than ine article claiming that South Korean artillery did some “practice firing” _into sea water_, and the North apparently responded by firing into a populated area in the South. Several different things may have happened, including one or more rounds that “strayed” onto North Korean land. Or North Korea going batshit over the idea that, “You shot our WATER!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/36 "2010-11-23T17:55:39Z")
Regardless of who started it, though, I figure the best possible outcome is a rapid NK collapse, starting without somebody putting a bullet in Jong-Il’s head, then the inner circle turning on each other as the membership each tries to grab as much gold or valuable secrets or whatever to increase their personal bargaining power with the South and the Americans. The NK military dissolves or turns on itself, as the factions fight it out, waves of refugees flee the country and the whole thing is an entertaining but largely bloodless mess for a few months before a new unified Korea with its capital in Seoul emerges. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/37 "2010-11-23T17:59:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I did see more than ine article claiming that South Korean artillery did some “practice firing” _into sea water_, and the North apparently responded by firing into a populated area in the South. Several different things may have happened, including one or more rounds that “strayed” onto North Korean land. Or North Korea going batshit over the idea that, “You shot our WATER!” Won’t someone think of the fish? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/38 "2010-11-23T18:04:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Every time NK rattles a saber, I have to wonder if it’s just because Kim Jong-il’s advisors are informing him the economy is on the verge of collapse. Yeah, sounds like NK needs another food shipment. With those guys rattling a sabre is the equivalent to a baby crying for its bottle. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/39 "2010-11-23T18:07:22Z")
Kind of an aside… I dunno if this can be believed, but [here](http://twitter.com/dprk_news) is purportedly a North Korean Twitter feed. It seem not to have been updated since July, and at that time they were threatening to “annihilate” Cyprus by rocket fire and a devastating counterattack by their Navy. They claimed on of their peaceful merchant vessels was seized, but Googling North Korea and Cyprus together doesn’t bring up anything that I can find about such an incident. I was mistaken … last update was in July of 2009! ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/40 "2010-11-23T18:08:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Regardless of who started it, though, I figure the best possible outcome is a rapid NK collapse, starting without somebody putting a bullet in Jong-Il’s head, then the inner circle turning on each other as the membership each tries to grab as much gold or valuable secrets or whatever to increase their personal bargaining power with the South and the Americans. The NK military dissolves or turns on itself, as the factions fight it out, waves of refugees flee the country and the whole thing is an entertaining but largely bloodless mess for a few months before a new unified Korea with its capital in Seoul emerges. I hope you’re right…except I’d like to see a bullet for The Fearless Leader. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=3)