# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/441 "2010-12-06T01:15:34Z")
Just because the game-playing Commissar is engaging in is amusing: Of course NK didn’t describe the waters as disputed. Saying that they were disputed would mean that NK was admitting that there was a _dispute_, NK just says that they’re _theirs_. And as already pointed out several times, even in the same sentence where NK describes murder in response to splashes in the open ocean to be “self defense”, Commissar is still willing to credit other claims valid on their face. (I believe this is the point where he claims that we can’t possibly know who’s telling the truth so we have to reserve judgment, before he states in a dozen different ways that the South is to blame and NK’s account is true). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/442 "2010-12-06T01:25:50Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I found North Korea’s official position on its media site, which can be found here: > > [News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) > > For some reason, the site won’t allow for links to individual articles, but here is the pertinent part: > > “… the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK on Nov. 23 took a decisive self-defensive measure to cope with the enemy’s reckless military provocation of firing shells inside the territorial waters of the DPRK side around Yonphyong Islet in the West Sea of Korea.” > > As you can see, the North is not saying that rounds were fired into contested waters. Rather, the position appears to be that this military provocation occurred in North Korean waters proper. [check this out from your cite](http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/1999/9911/news11/06.htm#1) > [@](#): > > As the world recognizes, the DPRK is the best socialist society centering on the masses in the world. > All people exercise their rights as genuine masters of the state and society and learn, work and enjoy happiness to their hearts’ content under the care of the party and the state and step up the second grand chollima march, helping and leading one another forward under the slogan “one for all and all for one.” > In this society, “turmoil” is impossible and unimaginable. > There can be “turmoil” in such a colonial fascist dictatorial society as South Korea where exploitation and oppression hold sway, human rights are trampled underfoot ruthlessly and the rich get richer and the poor poorer. > **False propaganda can convince no one.** bold… bwhahahah excuse me, er I mean bolding mine. _snicker_. If that site really is from North Korea than that last line describes their whole site. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/443 "2010-12-06T02:59:59Z")
Come now, you’re talking about the best socialist society centering on the masses in the world. What sort of a person would dare doubt the veracity of their glorious public relations? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/444 "2010-12-06T03:35:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just because the game-playing Commissar is engaging in is amusing: > Of course NK didn’t describe the waters as disputed. Saying that they were disputed would mean that NK was admitting that there was a _dispute_, NK just says that they’re _theirs_. Ah, I see. In other words, when the North Korean government says X, we are to assume that it means Y, Y conveniently being the one thing that you would like X to mean. Interesting. Do you have any proof that the plain language of the North Korean statement was actually a veiled reference to disputed waters? Or is this simply yet another in a long line of unfounded assertions on your part? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/445 "2010-12-06T03:58:07Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Ah, I see. In other words, when the North Korean government says X, we are to assume that it means Y, Y conveniently being the one thing that you would like X to mean. Interesting. Do you have any proof that the plain language of the North Korean statement was actually a veiled reference to disputed waters? Or is this simply yet another in a long line of unfounded assertions on your part? It’s not an assumption. “Contested waters” means both sides think it’s theirs —so when one side refers to the waters as their own, that does not qualify as evidence against it being contested waters! Particularly not when we’re talking about North Korea, whose public news media (as even you must realize) does not usually try to see the other side’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/446 "2010-12-06T04:58:28Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Do you have any proof Speaking of proof, have you found that proof, in international law or custom, to back up your claim that NK’s military response was a “justified” and “appropriate” response to a valid casus belli? And speaking of assertions (real ones, that can be quoted because they’re not made up in an attempt to fling strawmen), how many cites can you provide that show NK referring to the disputed waters as “disputed” rather than their property? [Because this is what NK actually refers to as the maritime boarder.](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/23/world/asia/1123-korea.html) Got that cite, friend-o-rama? Or I guess, speaking both of how you haven’t provided proof for any of your claims and the fictional assertions you’ve invented and claimed I made, care to cite those assertions that you claim I made about treaty violations or, whatever else you’ve invented? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/447 "2010-12-06T05:00:49Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > It’s not an assumption. “Contested waters” means both sides think it’s theirs —so when one side refers to the waters as their own, that does not qualify as evidence against it being contested waters! Particularly not when we’re talking about North Korea, whose public news media (as even you must realize) does not usually try to see the other side’s point of view. You seem to be missing the point, my friend. Currently-recognized boundaries put Northern waters just 12 kilometers north of the island in question. This is easily within modern artillery range. When the North claims that Southern artillery violated its territorial integrity, what basis does an observer have for trying to change that statement to read “violated contested waters?” Why disregard the plain meaning of the assertion? Remember, you can still disagree with the underlying claim, but this hardly justifies twisting the other side’s words for your own benefit. A plain reading of the Northern press release is that Southern artillery crossed the border. What is the basis for assuming that the press release means something else entirely? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/448 "2010-12-06T05:29:37Z")
Nope, I caught your point. It’s just silly —what North Korea said was _exactly_ what they would say in the case of contested waters. And since everyone else said it was contested waters, there’s no disagreement, and your objection has no factual basis. It’s just wishful thinking. IOW, “the basis for assuming that the press release means something else entirely” has a false premise —the press release _does not_ suggest that the waters were not contested, and its “plain meaning” is consistent with the other press reports. And none of this should be allowed to obscure the fact that we’re talking about _water_. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/449 "2010-12-06T06:12:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Cite what? Your interpretation of what I was saying, or the fact that millions have starved under the North’s tender ministrations of their people? Oh so when you said “One side has routinely starved their population into submission” you didn’t mean to imply that starvation was being intentionally used as a mechanism to control the population? You’re simply going overboard. If NK had enough food to feed their entire population they would and they would credit Kim Jong Il with being able to provide that food for everyone. They can’t so they blame the west for the famine. > [@](#): > > 😛 Seriously man…do you always go through all these twists and turns? NK spends less in absolute terms because they are a dirt poor country that only exists because the Chinese prop them up. The fact is they spend a ton of money that they don’t have while their people have starved in the past. Even in GOOD times a large percentage of their populations under nourished. You said: “while spending what little money they have on building up a ridiculously over armed military…while the other has not.” Was i quoting you out of context. SK spends more on its military than all but ten other countries. > [@](#): > > Even if true and compatible, so what? That was over 20 years ago. What have you done for me lately? So what?!?!?!? I’m trying to tone down the hyperbole about NK. They’re bad enough as it is without having to make shit up. > [@](#): > > They fired (without justification) into an area with a significant civilian population using unguided rockets. I’d say that this constitutes ‘the other side chose to fire on a village full of civilians, killing several of them’. No its NOT the same thing. You are imputing intent where intent did not exist. They CHOSE to fire on a SK military base with the artillery they had on hand and civilians got killed. They deserve criticism for every single death but the characterization of this incident as an attack on civilians is incorrect. > [@](#): > > If you want to nit pick, then they fired unguided artillery indiscriminately and in an unjustified manner in an area known to have civilians in it. You can twist and turn all you want, but the bottom line is that they had no justification what-so-ever to fire, even if the island was only populated by SK military types. You may not like the justification or think its good enough and thats fine but you can’t say they fired on civilians because that sort of lie creates doubt about everything else you say. Why isn’t it enough to say that they responded to the firing of SK artillery into contested waters with deadly force and civilian casualties resulted? Are you afraid that someone might analogize the dead Korean civilians with collateral damage of dead civilians in Afghanistan or something? > [@](#): > > We all know the score here…at least those of us who are even remotely reality based. The NK’s did this to once again put pressure on The West™ to make concessions to them politically and open up the goody bag for more appeasement, and also because lil’ Kimmy wants to strengthen the position of his son as heir apparent to the God Thrown. This was obviously yet another calculated move on the NK’s part…really no different than many of their actions over the past decades. I don’t entirely disagree. So why do you have to misrepresent the facts? Can’t you get to your conclusion without effectively saying “NK chose to attack civilians over nothing” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/450 "2010-12-06T06:14:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [URL=“[Statement Released by Spokesman of DPRK Foreign Ministry](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/dprk/2010/dprk-101124-kcna02.htm)”] > > They called an unprovoked act of naked aggression “self-defense”. Barring a cite of North Korean merfolk populations, it’s obvious that their claim of self defense is the most cynical kind of dishonesty. OK, I see where thats coming from. Did you read that to mean that they meant self defense in the same way that people use it as a defense in a murder case? Because I don’t think they meant that they felt like they were imminent danger of harm when they initiated the attack. I ask because some of your posts indicate that is what you thought. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/451 "2010-12-06T06:19:49Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Yes, once upon a time, South Korea was a bad place for human rights —and they still have a number of freedom of speech issues. But they don’t have anything on North Korea — and they never really have, at that. Yeah I agree. NK is run by bastards who gorge themselves while their countrymen starve to death. They punish political prisoners brutally and inhumanely but IF NK had enough food to feed the entire population, are you under the impression that they would STILL starve the general population as a method of subjugation? I’m not trying to say SK is worse than or just as bad as North Korea during the past present or future. I never meant to give that impression but if you read the post I was replying to, it was painting a dichotomy between SK and NK that whitewashed SK and unnecessarily attributed bad actions to NK just to make the comparison that much starker. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/452 "2010-12-06T06:23:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Still time is the key here, it is thanks to the current leaders that currently NK say so’s can not be trusted at all. Sure, I agree, so? Why does that make it OK for some posters to just make stuff up? > [@](#): > > The point was that they did not care if civilians where in the way. NK charged that SK civilians had been used as “human shields”. I understand that they didn’t really give a shit if an artillery shell landed somewhere they didn’t intend but that is not how it was being painted by posters who claim that NK “chose to fire… on civilians” I’m not saying they are being intentionally deceitful but their enthusiasm has carried them away from the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/453 "2010-12-06T06:26:03Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Kim Jong-il is worse than his dad, but this really isn’t true. The food distribution system, the bad economy, the prisons, and the political repression all predate the current Dear Leader, the sabre-rattling has been happening since the Korean War (which Kim Il-sung started), and the open famine had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the accompanying loss of support than the regime change —in fact, the famine probably started before Kim Il-sung was dead, although the DPRK didn’t request food aid until afterward ('94, I think?). So no, not the salt of the earth, Kim Il-sung, and his country has been a pretty dire place since before he passed on. My understanding is the economy fell apart in the mid 1990s there was a confluence of events but you can’t point to the collapse of the USSR and ignore the fact thet they share a border with China. Their famine is the result of grossly reduced food production. An honest to goodness famine (which i agree probably starteed before Kim Jong Il died but not lonog before he died, and I posit that the famine was at least partly the result of reallocation of resources by Kim Jong Il). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/454 "2010-12-06T06:27:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I found North Korea’s official position on its media site, which can be found here: > > [News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) > > For some reason, the site won’t allow for links to individual articles, but here is the pertinent part: > > “… the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK on Nov. 23 took a decisive self-defensive measure to cope with the enemy’s reckless military provocation of firing shells inside the territorial waters of the DPRK side around Yonphyong Islet in the West Sea of Korea.” > > As you can see, the North is not saying that rounds were fired into contested waters. Rather, the position appears to be that this military provocation occurred in North Korean waters proper. Yeah and SK claims that it was their waters. Thats why they call it contested, both sides claim it is theirs but the waters into which the shells were cast are contested. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/455 "2010-12-06T06:32:19Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > You seem to be missing the point, my friend. Currently-recognized boundaries put Northern waters just 12 kilometers north of the island in question. This is easily within modern artillery range. When the North claims that Southern artillery violated its territorial integrity, what basis does an observer have for trying to change that statement to read “violated contested waters?” Why disregard the plain meaning of the assertion? Remember, you can still disagree with the underlying claim, but this hardly justifies twisting the other side’s words for your own benefit. A plain reading of the Northern press release is that Southern artillery crossed the border. What is the basis for assuming that the press release means something else entirely? The island is within artillery range of guns on NK proper. In fact those are the guns that exchanged fire. I don’t know for a fact but all the evidence points to the notion that SK fired into contested waters. SK doesn’t consider the sovereignty of those waters any mroe in doubt than NK considers their sovereignty in doubt. Its kind of how that soret of thing works. I think its pretty clear that NK responded to an infringement on its sovereignty with deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/456 "2010-12-06T07:24:34Z")
Define what self defense means. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/457 "2010-12-06T12:57:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah I agree. NK is run by bastards who gorge themselves while their countrymen starve to death. They punish political prisoners brutally and inhumanely but IF NK had enough food to feed the entire population, are you under the impression that they would STILL starve the general population as a method of subjugation? No. They could of had enough food a long time ago if they were willing to make some changes, they didn’t. North Korea is foodless by the sole choice of the government. Further, **Commissar** seems to have missed my question so I’ll restate it for him. Do you honestly think the North Korean people would tolerate that insane monster’s government for more than 5 minutes if they knew what they were missing and had the tools to remove him from power? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/458 "2010-12-06T15:34:01Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > No. They could of had enough food a long time ago if they were willing to make some changes, they didn’t. North Korea is foodless by the sole choice of the government. I also don’t get why the NK government doesn’t get full blame for the starvation. We blame Stalin for the starvation of forced collectivization in the USSR in the 1930s, after all. It’s like a cult where the leader has systematically isolated the followers, then blames outsiders for the lack of access to medical care. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/459 "2010-12-06T16:51:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > No. They could of had enough food a long time ago if they were willing to make some changes, they didn’t. North Korea is foodless by the sole choice of the government. Oh, is this the part where we make unsubstantiated claims about alternative futures based on nothing more than our political beliefs? Well, then, ahem: “If not for the socialist government of North Korea, the Koreas would have been reunified under Imperial rule, at which point the peninsula would have become one vast sweatshop for the Imperial overlords. Thus, socialism saved both Koreas.” Yeah, I have nothing to support that claim, but it sounds good to me. > [@](#): > > Further, **Commissar** seems to have missed my question so I’ll restate it for him. > > Do you honestly think the North Korean people would tolerate that insane monster’s government for more than 5 minutes if they knew what they were missing and had the tools to remove him from power? The question is unanswerable, as we have never been able to predict human behavior. Revolutions and coups always seem to catch everyone by surprise. Two observations, though: First of all, you have a condescending view of North Koreans. What makes you assume that they have no knowledge or power? In the modern age, it’s not all that difficult to modify TVs and radios to pick up signals from the near abroad (especially when you live in a relatively small nation). Moreover, they are subjected to a constant barrage of balloon-borne printed propaganda from the South. I think they have a pretty good idea of what’s happening on the outside. Also, don’t underestimate the power of the masses. When enough people join a cause, that alone is enough to give them all the “tools” needed to overthrow any government, no matter how entrenched. Secondly, don’t assume that revolutions are ensured by the presence of an “insane monster.” Not all that long ago, the Imperials were ruled by just such an insane monster. Not only did they not rebel, they voluntarily reelected it in 2004. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/460 "2010-12-06T17:35:58Z")
Just to remind you as I’m sure the lack of cites is just a coincidence: -Found that cite yet to prove your claim that under international law or custom, NK’s military response was “justified” or “appropriate”, seeing as how that was your claim and you’ve never provided any proof for it? -Found that cite yet to prove that North Korea routinely (or ever) refers to territories that are claimed by SK as “disputed” rather than simply North Korea’s territory? -Found that cite yet to prove that I have made assertions, that I did not then cite, about any of the things you’ve invented and claimed I’ve said? > [@Commissar](#): > > Oh, is this the part where we make unsubstantiated claims about alternative futures based on nothing more than our political beliefs Your schtick is slipping. First, it was a claim about the past, not the future. The past is easier to analyze because most of us have access to cites. Some, evidently, do not. Second, it’s not unsubstantiated, it’s correct. \*Yet again, your ignorance is not a fault on someone else’s part my-dearest-life-long-friend. \* [ > [@](#): > > while North Korea’s government was unwilling even to acknowledge a crisis until 1996, the famine was already in the making by the late 1980s, as Soviet subsidies began to dry up. By 1991, as resources such as fuel and fertilizer dwindled, North Korea’s regime had launched its now-infamous belt-tightening “Eat Two Meals a Day” campaign. Badly engineered efforts to boost farm production resulted in erosion which may have contributed to the floods of 1995. The authors also note that both the late Great Leader, Kim Il Sung, and his son, the current ruler Kim Jong Il, who took over in 1994, made a specialty of dictating agricultural technique to the collectivized farms — right down to the spacing of seedlings. Terrified North Korean officials may have been afraid to explain to the Kims that production had gone severely wrong. > > But once clearly alerted to the extent of the famine, North Korea’s regime responded in ways that made an atrocious situation even worse. The regime treated as criminal the behavior with which starving North Koreans tried to save themselves, such as private trade, internal movement, or attempts to flee the country. In 1997, Kim Jong Il unveiled his policy of songun or “military first,” evidently a bid to retain the loyalty of the military by giving it — along with top state officials — first dibs on the country’s rations. > > Ordinary folks were required to rely on the totalitarian mercies of the state-controlled Public Distribution System, or PDS, which in theory distributed food to all, but by the mid-1990s was running out of food to distribute. Too rigid to adapt to a changing world, the system, at least for purposes of feeding nonprivileged North Koreans, broke down. Forbidden to find alternatives, and in many cases forcibly urbanized by a regime that aspired to Stalin-style heavy industry, many North Koreans were left with below-subsistence rations. In some places, the PDS delivered nothing at all. ]([http://www.nysun.com/arts/let-them-eat-nothing/53139/](http://www.nysun.com/arts/let-them-eat-nothing/53139/)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=24)