# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/41 "2010-11-23T18:10:09Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > …Imperial US overlords… “Imperial overlords?” Are you posting from 1967? If so, _cool._ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/42 "2010-11-23T18:12:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Aside from general skepticism. which I approve of, are you aware of any past incidents (say in the last 20 years or so) in which S Korea fired the first shots, or swung the first axes? > > I did see more than ine article claiming that South Korean artillery did some “practice firing” _into sea water_, and the North apparently responded by firing into a populated area in the South. Several different things may have happened, including one or more rounds that “strayed” onto North Korean land. Or North Korea going batshit over the idea that, “You shot our WATER!” I was under the impression that the north koreans fired on a military base that North Korea claims had been firing into North korean waters ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/43 "2010-11-23T18:13:06Z")
I for one wish to welcome both our US overlords and their North Korean challengers. Ready on your buzzers, gentlemen! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/44 "2010-11-23T18:13:29Z")
who is “the fearless leader”? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/45 "2010-11-23T18:14:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was under the impression that the north koreans fired on a military base that North Korea claims had been firing into North korean waters So the South may have killed or wounded an unknown number of North Korean fish. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/46 "2010-11-23T18:15:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > who is “the fearless leader”? Obviously you’ve never seen the “Rocky and Kim Jong Il” cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/47 "2010-11-23T18:22:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > who is “the fearless leader”? It is a joking reference to Kim Jong Il. On the old [Rocky and Bullwinkle Show](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_Show), the spy [Boris Badenov](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Badenov) refers to his country’s dictator as “Fearless Leader,” similar to Kim Jong Il’s “Dear Leader” moniker. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/48 "2010-11-23T18:29:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Damn… three days. Three days 'til you’re out, and this happens. We call that “retirony” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/49 "2010-11-23T18:43:04Z")
When NK sent up fighter aircraft that probably doubled the flight training the pilot’s had all year. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/50 "2010-11-23T18:43:38Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > This and similar comments seem to indicate a general assumption that North Korea started this particular exchange. I, for one, am not completely convinced that it wasn’t the South (and its Imperial US overlords) that fired the first volley. It is sloppy thinking to attempt to deduce truth from stereotypes and biases. [Han](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_class_submarine) shot first. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/51 "2010-11-23T18:55:16Z")
I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/52 "2010-11-23T18:59:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. China would not want that either. China seems to prefer the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/53 "2010-11-23T18:59:50Z")
Because hundreds of thousands of people dying is bad. (ETA: that’s a response to Ryan) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/54 "2010-11-23T19:01:29Z")
> [@Ryan](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. I suspect Seouls 10 million residents may be more difficult to rebuild. And given that its their gov’t that would need to declare war, I think its pretty safe to say the S. Korea will never initiate a second Korean War. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/55 "2010-11-23T19:02:03Z")
Then why not just get SK to promise that they won’t allow US troops or bases to be established past the 58th Parallel then? I don’t see SK being that much of a threat to their regime. The tyranny of history and the NK leadership is holding all the governments around it in a state of paralysis. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/56 "2010-11-23T19:05:44Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then why not just get SK to promise that they won’t allow US troops or bases to be established past the 58th Parallel then? I don’t see SK being that much of a threat to their regime. The tyranny of history and the NK leadership is holding all the governments around it in a state of paralysis. 58th? A bit too far north for NK’s taste, I would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/57 "2010-11-23T19:10:55Z")
South Korea is an incredible threat to the North. Millions of people who look like them and talk like them, with nice clothes and plenty of food and cars and iPods and … The threat from the South is not invasion – it’s _example_. The North’s leaders fear, justifiably so, that their own people will turn on them. That is why they must control the media and convince the populace that outsiders are continually trying to destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/58 "2010-11-23T19:19:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then why not just get SK to promise that they won’t allow US troops or bases to be established past the 58th Parallel then? I don’t see SK being that much of a threat to their regime. The tyranny of history and the NK leadership is holding all the governments around it in a state of paralysis. Shelling Seoul is N. Korea’s version of Mutally Assured Destruction. S. Korea can try whatever assurances it wants, but an invasion of N. Korea by just about anyone would lead them to wipe out the S. Korean capital. Its their trump card, and they’re not going to give it up for any agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/59 "2010-11-23T19:30:34Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > I would say that it all depends on China, and on whether North Korea has exhausted its patience. > > I would also say that it looks as if China’s tolerance of North Korea is running out, though. They only appear to keep it around because they need it as a buffer zone against South Korea and, by extension, the U.S. I have the feeling that, if North Korea went genuinely apeshit, the Chinese army would be in Pyongyang before you could blink. I’ve heard this before. Given that NK has nukes which could be trained on Chinese cities, and that even China doesn’t want to Seoul destroyed (it would be bad for business) how would China remove Kim from power? No snark, I’m seriously interested in an answer if there is one. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/60 "2010-11-23T19:40:42Z")
I’m not so sure that China could just waltz into NK in a twinkling either, to be honest. I’m sure they could grind their way in, but it would take time to stage their army and get their logistics in place for something that major, and even then it would take their army a lot of effort to fight through NK. And this is leaving aside the nukes. I think China COULD remove Kim from power…but it wouldn’t be the cake walk some seem to think it would be. Hell, WE would have trouble fighting through NK and taking out lil Kimmy and his merry men, and again that’s leaving aside the threat of nuclear weapons. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=4)