# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/61 "2010-11-23T19:56:57Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I’ve heard this before. Given that NK has nukes which could be trained on Chinese cities, and that even China doesn’t want to Seoul destroyed (it would be bad for business) how would China remove Kim from power? No snark, I’m seriously interested in an answer if there is one. Does NK even have capability of fitting a nuke to a missile? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/62 "2010-11-23T20:06:06Z")
I doubt it, but I’d say it’s an unknown. I know that in order to engineer nuclear weapons to be able to fit on a missile you need to do a lot of testing. That said, NK got their nuclear tech from the Soviets in the 50’s and 60’s, so it’s possible they also got the engineering to produce nukes that could go on missiles…and they definitely have missiles that can range as far as Japan at least. Even without them being able to put them on missiles they are still plenty dangerous to anyone potentially invading NK. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/63 "2010-11-23T20:09:07Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then why not just get SK to promise that they won’t allow US troops or bases to be established past the 58th Parallel then? And risk Alaska being attacked from Kamchatka? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/64 "2010-11-23T20:11:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And risk Alaska being attacked from Kamchatka? They just want the card. They’ll withdraw all their troops but one and let you take it back. (Plus, free card!) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/65 "2010-11-23T20:14:29Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Does NK even have capability of fitting a nuke to a missile? For what it’s worth, according to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Delivery_systems) > [@](#): > > The BM-25 is a North Korean designed long-range ballistic missile with range capabilities of up to 1,550 miles (roughly 2,500 km), and could carry a nuclear warhead. since Bejing is only 1330 miles from Pyongyang, it could possibly be within their capability. I don’t know the accuracy, but close counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and nuclear bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/66 "2010-11-23T20:20:04Z")
Will be an interesting few days, given that SK has said that any further hostilities will be met with “Drastic Consequences”. Oh, and regards our friend **Commissar** , he styles himself as the last Soviet Citizen, and is firmly wrapped up in his blanket of delusional historical denial. Pay him no mind. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/67 "2010-11-23T20:36:28Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Sure - except that the “precedent” was _also_ based on taking South Korea’s version of the story over North Korea’s. Every time the two sides exchange fire, both blame the other, and Western media sources (and Westerners in general) immediately side with the South. That seems like an untenable position to take (“The South is our colony and our pet; they can do no wrong, so they’re not at fault”). I say that we wait for independently-verified facts to emerge before assigning blame. Feel free to continue after your orgy with the mummified corpses of Stalin, Beria, Yezhov, Mao, Lin Biao, and Kim Il-Sung. Anyways while I don’t want war perhaps a good airstrike or two will serve the commie rebels a lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/68 "2010-11-23T20:42:35Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > It’s certainly _possible_ the South fired first - but we’ve seen no indication of that. True - but then we haven’t seen any indication that the North fired first either. It’s word against word at this point, yet most of you have already jumped to conclusions based on your political sympathies. > [@](#): > > And the South, unlike the North, enjoys a free and vigorous press - if the South were the aggressors, we’d expect to find that out. How so? Having a “free and vigorous press” does not automatically place a reporter at every single scene of aggression. I’m pretty sure the South Korean military could manage to pull off an attack out of the spotlight. > [@](#): > > Further, this is part of a pattern of North Korean aggression - consider the unprovoked attack on a South Korean warship, the development of nuclear weapons, and so on. The North Korean state has acted so badly over the past several years that it can hardly demand the benefit of the doubt now. Nope, not seeing a pattern. The warship incident has not conclusively been attributed to the North, so you’re just making an assumption again. And the nuclear weapons thing makes perfect sense from a defense viewpoint. Do you remember what happened to the last several enemies of the US that happened to lack nukes? If a nuclear deterrent is good enough for Western powers, I don’t see how you can justify getting your panties in a know when a non-Western state seeks to get in on the action. > [@](#): > > And for that matter, there are sound political reasons (from the NK perspective) to launch this sort of attack - it can be spun as a military victory and attributed to Kim’s son, thus helping to legitimize his transition into power over the next few years. True, but we can imagine motives for everyone else just as easily. The South may have launched an attack because the ruling government wants to stir up public emotion and take the attention off of the struggling economy. Or it wants to destabilize the North during what it seeks as a politically fragile time. Or the attack was ordered by the US, which seeks a pretext for invading North Korea before it can complete its nuclear deterrent project. > [@](#): > > One can be an ardent Communist and still acknowledge that avowedly Communist states are poorly run and bad actors on the international stage. Yes, and North Korea happens to be my least favorite socialist state. Nevertheless, it is patently unfair to treat it as a de facto whipping boy. Even if you do not like the state, there is no reason to assume that any incident involving it is its own fault. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/69 "2010-11-23T20:52:43Z")
I am going to follow the example Ryan set and be heartless and cruel. How hard would it be to just assassinate Kim and/or a few guys at the top? I know there would be backlash if someone found out who did it, but surely there is somebody out there who wouldn’t have too many qualms with getting rid of him. Any SK suicide bombers? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/70 "2010-11-23T20:54:12Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > True - but then we haven’t seen any indication that the North fired first either. It’s word against word at this point, yet most of you have already jumped to conclusions based on your political sympathies. > > How so? Having a “free and vigorous press” does not automatically place a reporter at every single scene of aggression. I’m pretty sure the South Korean military could manage to pull off an attack out of the spotlight. > > Nope, not seeing a pattern. The warship incident has not conclusively been attributed to the North, so you’re just making an assumption again. And the nuclear weapons thing makes perfect sense from a defense viewpoint. Do you remember what happened to the last several enemies of the US that happened to lack nukes? If a nuclear deterrent is good enough for Western powers, I don’t see how you can justify getting your panties in a know when a non-Western state seeks to get in on the action. > > True, but we can imagine motives for everyone else just as easily. The South may have launched an attack because the ruling government wants to stir up public emotion and take the attention off of the struggling economy. Or it wants to destabilize the North during what it seeks as a politically fragile time. Or the attack was ordered by the US, which seeks a pretext for invading North Korea before it can complete its nuclear deterrent project. > > Yes, and North Korea happens to be my least favorite socialist state. Nevertheless, it is patently unfair to treat it as a de facto whipping boy. > Even if you do not like the state, there is no reason to assume that any incident involving it is its own fault. These may be assumptions but they’re logical assumptions. If someone has eaten macaroni and cheese for dinner every Wednesday for the last two years it is only logical that we think he will eat it for dinner this Wednesday. Of course it is not 100% certainity unlike 2+2=4 but considering North Korea’s current government and past history the evidence is OVERWHELMING. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/71 "2010-11-23T20:59:27Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > I am going to follow the example Ryan set and be heartless and cruel. How hard would it be to just assassinate Kim and/or a few guys at the top? I know there would be backlash if someone found out who did it, but surely there is somebody out there who wouldn’t have too many qualms with getting rid of him. Any SK suicide bombers? Very fucking difficult. The number one priority of his security services is preventing internal rebellion, coup plotting, assassination plots, et cetera. We don’t have fucking Batman on staff. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/72 "2010-11-23T21:00:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So the South may have killed or wounded an unknown number of North Korean fish. Thats not the point. I condemn North Korea’s act of aggeression but it is being painted in some circles as an indiscriminate attack targetting civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/73 "2010-11-23T21:01:45Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > How so? Having a “free and vigorous press” does not automatically place a reporter at every single scene of aggression. I’m pretty sure the South Korean military could manage to pull off an attack out of the spotlight. Having no free press freedom pretty much guarantees the oppression of a society through lies. Not having a reporter at the scene of an event does not equal misinformation. In a free society it means multiple reporters can independently investigate an event and the government cannot stop the action or the information that comes out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/74 "2010-11-23T21:08:46Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > 58th? A bit too far north for NK’s taste, I would imagine. Forget North Korea, You eat up some of China and Russia. Its been 2500 years since Korean borders have extended that far north. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/75 "2010-11-23T21:14:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > who is “the fearless leader”? That’s probably the key question. Quite feasible that the heir apparent, Kim Jong-un is demonstrating to the DRRK military that h’s capable of playing the brinkmanship game to the equal of his father and grandfather. > **[ABC News - Trusted Source of Latest News & Headlines](https://www.abc.net.au/news)** > > Follow the latest news headlines from Australia's most trusted source. Read in-depth expert analysis and watch live coverage on ABC News. > [@](#): > > \*Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:56am AEDT > A senior North Korean official has given the first public confirmation that the youngest son of the dictator Kim Jong-il will succeed his father. > > The closed communist state is this weekend expected to hold the biggest military parade in its history in part to honour the rise of Kim Jong-un. > > Speaking to the APTN news agency, North Korean ruling party member Yang Hyong-sop said his people were honoured to serve Kim Jong-un. > > The comments are the first public confirmation by a regime official that Kim Jong-il’s youngest son will succeed his ailing father. > > Believed to be about 27-years-old, Jong-un was last week appointed a four-star general. \* ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/76 "2010-11-23T21:14:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Having no free press freedom pretty much guarantees the oppression of a society through lies. Not having a reporter at the scene of an event does not equal misinformation. In a free society it means multiple reporters can independently investigate an event and the government cannot stop the action or the information that comes out. You seem to be missing a couple points here: 1. Free press does not equal unlimited access to everything. Most nations do not allow reporters free access to military installations. Without access, the “investigation” is moot. 2. More importantly, the Western media (and most of you) do not appear to be doing much “investigating” at the moment. You have already reached your conclusion and formed a digital lynch mob. As far as investigative work goes, I am not impressed. For example, take a look at this most recent BBC article: > **[Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11823474)** > > South Korea threatens missile strikes against the North in case of "further provocations", after one of the most serious clashes since the Korean War. One of the first sentences is, “The South returned fire in one of the worst clashes since the Korean War.” In other words, the BBC claims that the North fired first. What diligent journalistic investigation is this conclusion based upon? Later on, the same article admits that the two sides are telling different stories about what happened; this does not stop the supposedly neutral BBC from taking sides before the dust has even settled. Sure, I like the myth of a free and unbiased press. I like it so much that I would like to see at least one example of it within my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/77 "2010-11-23T21:29:17Z")
If you’re going to suggest theories based on who you think _wanted_ the conflict, you could just as plausibly blame me - I ordered the attack. It was because Kim Jong-Il borrowed my DVD of _Watchmen_ and didn’t return it. Along similar lines are people who concoct elaborate JFK assassination theories based on who they think benefited from his death. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/78 "2010-11-23T21:30:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Won’t someone think of the fish? Well, **xtisme** does have baited breath. That made me think of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/79 "2010-11-23T21:38:21Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > And risk Alaska being attacked from Kamchatka? > > They just want the card. They’ll withdraw all their troops but one and let you take it back. (Plus, free card!) \*\* snerk \*\* I was thinking the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/80 "2010-11-23T21:40:50Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Does NK even have capability of fitting a nuke to a missile? > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > For what it’s worth, according to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Delivery_systems) > > since Bejing is only 1330 miles from Pyongyang, it could possibly be within their capability. I don’t know the accuracy, but close counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and nuclear bombs. The real question isn’t whether they have a missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, because everybody and their grandma does – IF the warhead is small enough. The better question is if they have a warhead small enough to be carried by one of their missiles. I’m not sure if anyone in the west has the answer to this question right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=5)