# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/101 "2010-11-24T07:48:00Z")
Two civilian deaths reported. Wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/102 "2010-11-24T08:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > So, you believe that BBC is not only inherently credible, but also reliable. In that case, are you also certain that its unsupported statement that the North fired first is, in fact, based on some secret information that it has come to possess? > > Moreover, let’s assume you’re correct on the question of credibility and reliability. Does this make Western media’s word gospel? Can you imagine of a situation in which BBC would lie and the North Korean media would speak truthfully? Or is this an entirely black-and-white equation that never varies based on the story in question? We believe the BBC because it has a pretty well respected track record and independence from the matters at hand. We believe the South Koreans, if for no other reason than it makes no fucking sense for them to fire on North Korea without provocation. We do not believe North Koreans because of a long history of blatantly unprovoked attacks on the South, and because this is a somewhat logical action for them to take. To be honest, if I fancied myself an apologist for socialism, which IMHO is a really nice idea that fails terribly when confronted with actual human beings :(, the last thing I’d want to do is talk about North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/103 "2010-11-24T10:20:55Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. Its the cost of the re-intergration of the North, into a continous nation with the South. Seoul has been watching the German reintergration since the wall came down, I dont think they are at the point where its affordable yet. The status quo with North Korea is actually the cheapest option. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/104 "2010-11-24T10:22:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Don’t worry! The UK is on top of the situation, it has already issued a strongly-condemns statement, which will put the fear of God into the heathen commies: > > – damn, that’s a harsh response! ”strongly condemns” & ”strongly urge” in one statement! I bet the Dear Leader is covering in fear after such a harsh rebuke! He is probably shitting himself in fear that William Hague may send a strongly worded letter to the UN! They may go with the nuclear option and send in the health and safety inspectors. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/105 "2010-11-24T11:18:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. North and South Korea don’t have to declare war. They’ve only signed an armistice, not a peace treaty. They’re still at war. > [@](#): > > Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. I think I’ll go with the actual economists who have been saying for years that it will quite an expensive proposition to have full-blown fighting. Another thing that you might want to consider is the huge number of deaths that would ensue if Seoul were to be destroyed by artillery. It’s not just a bunch of buildings up there; there are real people living there. > [@](#): > > Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. What makes you think that the prison guards will not “eradicate” all the prisoners there if the regime collapses? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/106 "2010-11-24T12:58:12Z")
China is so afraid of America getting a foothold on their border, but have they considered the fact that reunification may push all of Korea into \*China’s \*sphere of influence? One the North falls, American troops will go home, and the peninsula will be wide open for them to take economic and cultural control. I’m not endorsing this, mind you, just saying it’s a real possibility. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/107 "2010-11-24T13:52:35Z")
Ending up in control of the Korean peninsula is probably what China is most _worried_ about 😃 Obviously South Korea is something of a prize, but it’s very definitely balanced by the North Korean economic basket case (and possibly a South Korean one given the level of fireworks that might be involved). And from China’s point of view it can hardly end up with the South without the North, but it could easily end up with the North (or at least the majority of it’s hungry mouths) alone. I don’t know enough about the attitudes in South Korea to China, but if there is going to be more economic and political ties they are going to come about by political and economic processes that are already under way regardless of the North Korean situation. The US is committed to defending South Korea, they won’t just let China roll across the border at the end of a war, and China has no desire to start WWIII either. There are a lot of things that I don’t like about China, but people need to stop talking about them as if they were governed by Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/108 "2010-11-24T13:54:18Z")
N. Korea are China’s puppet. A puppet which they use to distract attention from their own nefarious currency manipulations, human rights abuses, ‘rare earth’ hoarding, cyber hacking et al activities. This should be pretty manifest for anyone with an objective eye on procedings in that region. China’s hypocrisy in siding with and sponsoring this archaic regime while prospering from their dealings with the West is what should really be under scrutiny here. Not the ‘Dear Leader’s’ son’s obligatory brovado to demonstrate to daddy he’s worthy of being lord of the flies. How is it China get a pass when really it’s their support and their support alone that allows this beligerant hermit state to remain the thorn in all our sides that it is? Are we so addicted to their ‘Guangzong knock-offs’ and poor quality workman[child]ship that we can just let them expand to the point where we simply _cannot_ tell them what to do? (…if that hasn’t already happen, that is!) Just spit ballin’, but… _“And the number of the army of the horsemen were two myriads of myriads; and I heard the number of them.”_’ - **Revelation 9:16** :o ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/109 "2010-11-24T15:11:14Z")
Neither Korea is anyone’s puppet. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/110 "2010-11-24T15:33:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > China is so afraid of America getting a foothold on their border, but have they considered the fact that reunification may push all of Korea into \*China’s \*sphere of influence? One the North falls, American troops will go home, and the peninsula will be wide open for them to take economic and cultural control. > > I’m not endorsing this, mind you, just saying it’s a real possibility. There is a long history of Korean emnity to and resistance to Chinese domination. A reunified Korea would most likely end up like a reunified Veitnam did: reverting back to its traditional role of being on more or less permanent bad terms with China. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/111 "2010-11-24T15:42:34Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > North Korean state-controlled media is giving a very different account; I suppose that you will simply disregard their version as not credible. Of course not how could one argue that a media that is run by such a [great golfer and bowler](http://www.oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/1-211-Kim_Jongil_Best_Golfer_in_the_World.html) would be at all untrustworthy. The West has its problems, but the NK system really has no redeeming qualities. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/112 "2010-11-24T15:51:27Z")
I see that the US is sending the nuclear carrier USS George Washington (CVN-73) to the area in question. I know it never sails alone. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/113 "2010-11-24T16:02:47Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Neither Korea is anyone’s puppet. [/QUOTE] Yeah…that’s the problem. If North Korea WAS China’s ‘puppet’ then it wouldn’t be such an issue, because they would be able to rein in lil Kimmy and his merry men. Sadly, NK is NOT China’s puppet, and while China exerts a fair amount of influence, that’s about it…influence. The South of course has never been a US ‘puppet’ _snort_…far from it. They have been a rather good ally to the US however (when they weren’t having one of their annual student blowout protests…I used to think this might be the Koreans national pass time). -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/114 "2010-11-24T16:37:16Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > How is it China get a pass when really it’s their support and their support alone that allows this beligerant hermit state to remain the thorn in all our sides that it is? Are we so addicted to their ‘Guangzong knock-offs’ and poor quality workman[child]ship that we can just let them expand to the point where we simply _cannot_ tell them what to do? (…if that hasn’t already happen, that is!) > Just spit ballin’, but… > > _“And the number of the army of the horsemen were two myriads of myriads; and I heard the number of them.”_’ - **Revelation 9:16** > > :o China is a sovereign nation of 2 billion people. What makes you think anyone can simply “tell them” what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/115 "2010-11-24T17:57:38Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > So, you believe that BBC is not only inherently credible, but also reliable. In that case, are you also certain that its unsupported statement that the North fired first is, in fact, based on some secret information that it has come to possess? > > Moreover, let’s assume you’re correct on the question of credibility and reliability. Does this make Western media’s word gospel? Can you imagine of a situation in which BBC would lie and the North Korean media would speak truthfully? Or is this an entirely black-and-white equation that never varies based on the story in question? There is no such animal as “western media”. Either a news source is independent, or it’s not. In communist countries such as NK, it’s not. If you don’t understand that then borrow a raft from someone fleeing Cuba and make a pilgrimage to the land of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/116 "2010-11-24T18:06:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no such animal as “western media”. Either a news source is independent, or it’s not. :dubious: Of course there is such animal as “Western media,” and it does not include some **independent** outlets such as al-Jazeera. The distinction between the NYT and North Korea’s state news agency is important, but the distinction between the NYT and al-Jazeera is no less important. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/117 "2010-11-24T18:54:27Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > We believe the BBC because it has a pretty well respected track record and independence from the matters at hand. > > We believe the South Koreans, if for no other reason than it makes no fucking sense for them to fire on North Korea without provocation. > > We do not believe North Koreans because of a long history of blatantly unprovoked attacks on the South, and because this is a somewhat logical action for them to take. > > To be honest, if I fancied myself an apologist for socialism, which IMHO is a really nice idea that fails terribly when confronted with actual human beings :(, the last thing I’d want to do is talk about North Korea. Why do people constantly confuse socialism with communist dictatorships? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/118 "2010-11-24T18:57:19Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah…that’s the problem. If North Korea WAS China’s ‘puppet’ then it wouldn’t be such an issue, because they would be able to rein in lil Kimmy and his merry men. Sadly, NK is NOT China’s puppet, and while China exerts a fair amount of influence, that’s about it…influence. > > The South of course has never been a US ‘puppet’ _snort_…far from it. They have been a rather good ally to the US however (when they weren’t having one of their annual student blowout protests…I used to think this might be the Koreans national pass time). > > -XT NK is about as much of a Chinese puppet as Castro’s Cuba was a Soviet puppet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/119 "2010-11-24T19:05:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is a long history of Korean emnity to and resistance to Chinese domination. A reunified Korea would most likely end up like a reunified Veitnam did: reverting back to its traditional role of being on more or less permanent bad terms with China. I doubt a reunified Korea would be on bad terms with a non-imperialistic China. The history between China and Korea is not one of perpetual antagonism. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/120 "2010-11-24T21:43:01Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I see that the US is sending the nuclear carrier USS George Washington (CVN-73) to the area in question. I know it never sails alone. Lotta heavy-duty iron, there. BTW–have any of you read the BBC’s _Have Your Say_ section on this? Biggest collection of madmen I’ve ever seen. Nearly half of em seem to think it’s a false flag operation, & the other half are too crazy to care! 5% seem sane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=7)