# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/121 "2010-11-24T23:06:59Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > BTW–have any of you read the BBC’s _Have Your Say_ section on this? > > Biggest collection of madmen I’ve ever seen. Nearly half of em seem to think it’s a false flag operation, & the other half are too crazy to care! 5% seem sane. Good for them, then; at least they exhibit independent thinking. The rest of you here have still not justified your blind belief that the North is responsible for this latest incident. You’ve simply swallowed Western media’s conclusory statements hook, line, and sinker, without even realizing that they cannot have any possible grounds for making those statements in the first place. Most of you are blinded by your preconceived notions, and that is somewhat sad. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/122 "2010-11-24T23:55:50Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Good for them, then; at least they exhibit independent thinking. The rest of you here have still not justified your blind belief that the North is responsible for this latest incident. You’ve simply swallowed Western media’s conclusory statements hook, line, and sinker, without even realizing that they cannot have any possible grounds for making those statements in the first place. Most of you are blinded by your preconceived notions, and that is somewhat sad. Well, If you check around you would see that I do not appreciate the Western media capacity of ignoring news that benefit the people. However, you are indeed blinded on your preconceived notions that we should accept in this case what North Korea is saying. So instead of looking at the western media I decided to check on the media that before was even threatened by the US with bombing their offices in Iraq: Al Jazeera And what do they report in this case? > **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. > [@](#): > > Was North Korea’s shelling a pre-meditated incident? > > Experts don’t agree on the exact reasoning behind North Korea’s decision to assault the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong in the Yellow Sea. > > North Korea’s military and government are on a permanent war-footing and view military manoeuvres by South Korea and the US with alarm. > > South Korea’s armed forces have been holding military exercises and were conducting live firing drills in the vicinity of the disputed islands. So, it is possible that nervous North Korean officers misinterpreted, believing they were under fire. > > \*\*But analysts see this as unlikely. Such drills are routine, and there appears to be nothing unusual that could have caused a misunderstanding. Also, the North’s response came at least half an hour after the live firing exercise ended. > \*\* > It is more likely that the attack was planned in advance but that Pyongyang used the South Korean drills as a pretext. This would allow the North to claim self-defence, and indeed North Korea was unusually quick in issuing a statement saying Seoul was the aggressor. So when even a source that is not friendly to the western powers \* is reporting that North Korea is the side that should not be trusted in this case, one should not swallow what the “dear leader” is telling you. - (but it is source that has respect in the Middle east and has gained respect with some in the west for doing a great job in the area) ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/123 "2010-11-25T00:09:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, If you check around you would see that I do not appreciate the Western media capacity of ignoring news that benefit the people. However, you are indeed blinded on your preconceived notions that we should accept in this case what North Korea is saying. My friend, at no point did I say that South Korea was unquestionably at fault and that we should all accept the North’s version of events. My only point is that we should avoid jumping to conclusions without further facts. We should no more accept the North’s story than we should accept the South’s; we simply do not know what happened, so let’s hold our horses and adopt a wait-and-see approach. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/124 "2010-11-25T00:15:18Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > My friend, at no point did I say that South Korea was unquestionably at fault and that we should all accept the North’s version of events. My only point is that we should avoid jumping to conclusions without further facts. We should no more accept the North’s story than we should accept the South’s; we simply do not know what happened, so let’s hold our horses and adopt a wait-and-see approach. No, you are dead wrong \*, I did not jump to conclusions, and so do many in this thread. I have seen enough, The North has a long history of deceptions that can not be ignored, that does weight heavily on what is the most likely thing that has taken place in the latest exchange; that and the reports from the unfriendly to the west media. - And I’m not your friend. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/125 "2010-11-25T00:50:24Z")
Okay, Commissar. Who do you believe started the Korean War, North or South? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/126 "2010-11-25T01:50:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, Commissar. Who do you believe started the Korean War, North or South? We need to take a wait-and-see approach. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/127 "2010-11-25T01:54:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, Commissar. Who do you believe started the Korean War, North or South? He will say it was the US. As for what the norks want, they want food. And economic help. Korean culture is complicated, but from what I can recall of my readings a decade ago, the North Koreans are acting pretty typically from an “old school” viewpoint. They can’t just ASK for the food/help, so they will instead make of themselves a nuisance, and then they can play up the assistance as “tribute” to their martial prowess. Being in a position of strength is very important to them. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/128 "2010-11-25T04:01:31Z")
Well, the North’s [Korean Central News Agency](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) has spoken. See the second and third items, which I can’t link to separately. I simply love those guys. Funny, but those items are of secondary importance to “Kim Jong Il Gives Field Guidance to Mineral Water Processing Factory.” ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/129 "2010-11-25T04:32:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, Commissar. Who do you believe started the Korean War, North or South? I believe that, contrary to what you may think, it’s a complicated question (life tends to fall into grey categories like that). Both the North and the South contributed to the breakout of hostilities, as did some of the hands-on observers, most notably the US. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/130 "2010-11-25T05:00:21Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Well, the North’s [Korean Central News Agency](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) has spoken. See the second and third items, which I can’t link to separately. I simply love those guys. > > Funny, but those items are of secondary importance to “Kim Jong Il Gives Field Guidance to Mineral Water Processing Factory.” So the great leader showed them how to filter liquids? Film at 11? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/131 "2010-11-25T05:12:12Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I believe that, contrary to what you may think, it’s a complicated question (life tends to fall into grey categories like that). Both the North and the South contributed to the breakout of hostilities, as did some of the hands-on observers, most notably the US. Every post you make here proves how little you know of history. This last one is the clincher. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/132 "2010-11-25T06:08:59Z")
This is some kind of performance art piece. I look forward to being called a running dog. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/133 "2010-11-25T06:14:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Every post you make here proves how little you know of history. This last one is the clincher. No, what you’re really whining about is that many of my interpretations of past events do not fit snuggly into your own narrow world-view. Yeah, there’s not much I can do to help you out there. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/134 "2010-11-25T06:32:58Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > My friend, at no point did I say that South Korea was unquestionably at fault and that we should all accept the North’s version of events. My only point is that we should avoid jumping to conclusions without further facts. We should no more accept the North’s story than we should accept the South’s; we simply do not know what happened, so let’s hold our horses and adopt a wait-and-see approach. Sadly for your excuses, there is no controversy over the facts. Let’s read the DPRK’s official line (from [the website linked to a few posts ago](http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201011/news24/20101124-17ee.html)): [QUOTE=DPRK Foreign Ministry] As already reported by the Supreme Command of the KPA, the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK on Nov. 23 took a decisive self-defensive measure to cope with the enemy’s reckless military provocation of firing shells inside the territorial waters of the DPRK side around Yonphyong Islet in the West Sea of Korea. The army of the DPRK warned several times that if even a single shell of the enemy is fired inside the territorial waters of the DPRK, it will take a prompt retaliatory strike in connection with the live shell firing drill they planned to stage from Yonphyong Islet while conducting the ill-famed war maneuvers for a war of aggression against the DPRK codenamed Hoguk. [snip] This notwithstanding, the enemy committed such an extremely reckless military provocation as firing dozens of shells from the islet inside the territorial waters of the DPRK side from around 13:00. The enemy fired shells from the islet which is so close to the territory of the DPRK that it is within each other’s eyeshot despite the fact that there are so many mountains and rivers, sea waters and islets in south Korea. This powder-reeking saber-rattling cannot be construed otherwise than a politically motivated provocation. [/QUOTE] In other words, both the ROK and the DPRK say that the South Korean Navy fired rounds into the water as a part of military exercises. North Korea responded by firing at actual South Korean targets. No controversy over facts. Your position is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/135 "2010-11-25T06:45:31Z")
I also noticed that **straight man** , but I wanted to see if \*\*Commissar \*\*would be capable of figuring out on his own that his interpretations of past events do not fit snuggly into his own narrow world-view. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/136 "2010-11-25T07:00:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I also noticed that **straight man** , but I wanted to see if \*\*Commissar \*\*would be capable of figuring out on his own that his interpretations of past events do not fit snuggly into his own narrow world-view. 🙂 Oh. Sorry to steal your thunder… ☹ ETA: In retrospect, it’s _really obvious_ that the whole thing was a setup to embarrass **Commissar**. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/137 "2010-11-25T10:58:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. You don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging? Pray, tell us, based on what? Where did this special knowledge come from? Or, is it something you just decided to make up because you want a war? I’ll be you’ve never even bothered to look at the population distribution in S. Korea to see where the majority of the population is located. I’ll bet you’ve never even bothered to look at where the majority of S. Korea’s manufacturing or financial industry is. Yet, here you are, telling us it won’t be that bad.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/138 "2010-11-25T12:21:25Z")
Majority of just about everything in South Korea is in the corridor running from Incheon to Seoul, with most of that actualy being in Seoul. Seoul is one mighty big burg. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/139 "2010-11-25T13:22:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Neither Korea is anyone’s puppet. Puppet is probably the incorrect term in retrospect. **Surrogate** is more applicable I think. China use the issues in Korea to obfuscate their own, some might say, ‘Machivellian’ wiles. Just like they are doing right now effectively by refusing to categorically denounce what NK did - killing _civillains_ for South’s incidental “millimeter” incursion into a section of the ocean North have dibs on in those parts - instead just offering up prevariation and rhetoric. You’d have to be quite the one-eyed Pinko not to see the facts of this matter. And given the location stated in your profile here… :rolleyes: > [@msmith537](#): > > China is a sovereign nation of 2 billion people. What makes you think anyone can simply “tell them” what to do? Closer to 1.3bil, 700 million of which are impoverished rural types. Also, I meant ‘telling them what to do’ in terms of having enough economic sway to ‘usher’ them in a direction more becoming of a potential global super power. But like I alluded to, thanks to the West’s hunger for cheap shit (read: greed), the horse has likely bolted in this respect. ## No one can tell Commies what to do, that’s inherent in the very ideology (_ie._ they have the guns!). Like my mother who grew up in post-WWII Europe once said about Communism - “_In Communism, what’s yours is mine and what’s mine has nothing to do with you!_” Now the Yanks are exacerbating the situation with the planned buddy-buddy posturing over there together with the South. It won’t help matters, demonstrating how oh so powerful the US military are, when the denizens of NK wake to Kim’s ‘rise and shine’ mind-fuck each morning, get twisted propaganda as their ‘facts’ and are largely confined to Gulags or too hungry to care. There can be no ‘internal pressure’ for NK to relent. This will only give Kim and co. even more fuel to fire the ‘imperialist US and their puppet South K. angle’, to their country and, more importantly, their Red ally. The fact is, the South ceasing its aid and their penchant for willy-waggling war games have raised the North’s ire. Communist regimes _are_ their military. This kind of idiocy plays right into the Dear Midget’s greasy hands. If we back them too far into the corner I’m afraid the consequences might not be a worthwhile trade-off, whoever emerges the ‘victor’. Especailly if they are in fact nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/140 "2010-11-25T13:34:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am going to be heartless and cruel but why not use this pretext of them shelling a civlian area to actually declare war on them and destroy that regime once and for all. Seoul can be rebuilt, in fact, I don’t even think the war would be that economically damaging as it’s being presented. Come on, liberate those terrible prison camps and finally end this ridiculous charade once and for all. lol! I’m no geo-economics scholar, but I don’t think it takes much of a degree to know 24 million emaciated North Koreans that time’s forgotten assimilating with, what would likely be a _war-torn_ South, isn’t exactly a recipe for a economic prosperity! Stay in school 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=8)