# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645 "2010-11-23T06:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/161 "2010-11-25T20:16:39Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I, for one, believe that the Western hysteria over North Korea’s alleged nuclear capability is overblown. They may be far along to get a controlled chain reaction going, but I doubt they’re anywhere near having a deployable nuclear arsenal. uh huh. They’ve demonstrated a fissionable weapon as well as long range missile technology. Bolting the two together isn’t rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/162 "2010-11-25T20:21:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is not my only source, and I also use logic. Even the Chinese have come to call on both sides to restrain their responses, not to call on the “provocation from the south” if the south had been at fault I would expect the Chinese to come hard on South Korea for this provocation, instead they declared that “We regret the casualties and property losses, and are concerned about the situation” > > That is \*\*not \*\*what the Chinese would say if there was any evidence that the South was the aggressor. > > [http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/207974/china-regrets-shelling-casualties](http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/207974/china-regrets-shelling-casualties) Indeed, and all I’m encouraging you to do is follow the Chinese model. The Chinese don’t know what really happened, they’re not afraid to admit it, and they’re not about to make allegations without proof. You, on the other hand, are perfectly willing to jump all over any editorial that happens to mesh with your preconceived views. You are amazingly closed-minded, my friend. Incidentally, I’m not blaming the South. I don’t know what happened, either. Stating that the South may be at fault is not the same as saying that it most certainly is at fault. I’m sorry if this nuance somehow escapes you. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/163 "2010-11-25T20:24:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > uh huh. They’ve demonstrated a fissionable weapon as well as long range missile technology. Bolting the two together isn’t rocket science. I hope you’re right. I support the North Korean nuclear program, as it would guarantee their safety from the would-be Imperial overlords. Nevertheless, it’s not as simple as developing a nuke and sticking it on a missile. You must also make the nuke small enough to fit a regular missile or develop an ICBM capable of carrying a regularly-sized nuke. I haven’t seen any indication that the North has developed either of these two technologies. Once again, I hope I’m wrong, but we simply cannot know at the moment (seeing a pattern yet?). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/164 "2010-11-25T20:55:40Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > . . . (seeing a pattern yet?). Sure. You will profess ignorance regarding anything that might remotely be considered a threat to non-totalitarian governments while expressing skepticism of any statement that emanates from a non-totalitarian government. Seems a pretty clear pattern. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/165 "2010-11-25T20:55:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > You’re not thinking this through, my friend. Even if we postulate that the South fired into Northern waters with no intention of hitting Northern targets, it is still a provocative act of aggression. > > If you’re having difficulty seeing this, switch the parties around. Let’s say that a North Korean warship approaches the US, stopping just outside its territorial waters off the coast of California. The US, worried, lets the North Korean government know that any act of aggression against US people or territory will be met with immediate retribution. The warship ignores this warning and fires a salvo into US waters, the shells exploding just off the shore of Los Angeles. The US armed forces fire back, striking the warship. Would you say that the US was an aggressor acting without provocation? This is a pathetic analogy. Let’s list the problems: 1. South Korea had informed the DPRK of the military exercises; 2. it’s not clear (as someone else pointed out) that shots were fired into actual North Korean waters; 3. North Korea threatens to take military action in response to everything anybody does against its interests, which makes it impossible to back down in the face of DPRK threats\*; 4. North Korea does not _border the United States or run the waters on the other side of the line_; 5. there was, AFAIK, no Los Northkoreageles nearby; and 6) North Korea did not shoot back at the warships but at other, unrelated ground targets. And for all that, no, territorial waters are not a defensible target. Military action in response to shots fired at water is completely stupid. So even though you stacked your analogy as much as you possibly could in favour of the North Korean position, you have still failed to justify their actions in any way. \*It’s the iterated prisoners’ dilemma, and you seem to be in favour of cooperating every single time when the other side defects every single time. If you’d like me to explain this more fully, I can. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/166 "2010-11-25T21:24:32Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Indeed, and all I’m encouraging you to do is follow the Chinese model. The one where the Chinese said (implied) that “the south did not cause any harm to the North”? Sure. > [@Commissar](#): > > The Chinese don’t know what really happened, they’re not afraid to admit it, and they’re not about to make allegations without proof. You, on the other hand, are perfectly willing to jump all over any editorial that happens to mesh with your preconceived views. You are amazingly closed-minded, my friend. Nope, wrong again, I deal with probabilities here, and so far looking at many different sources and the evidence so far tell us that the North was the one that screwed up. Denying that\*\* is\*\* to be closed minded. > [@Commissar](#): > > Incidentally, I’m not blaming the South. I don’t know what happened, either. Stating that the South may be at fault is not the same as saying that it most certainly is at fault. I’m sorry if this nuance somehow escapes you. So, can you point at images of the damage the South caused to the North? Because what is clear is that the North did not care where their shells landed. > **[South Korea's defence minister quits](https://www.smh.com.au/world/south-koreas-defence-minister-quits-20101126-189e1.html)** > > South Korea's defence minister has resigned after facing severe criticism for the military's response to a deadly North Korean artillery bombardment this week. > [@](#): > > Kim’s resignation comes two days after the North shelled a South Korean border island, killing four people and setting homes ablaze. > **[North Korea Strike May Have Been Premeditated](https://www.newsweek.com/north-korea-strike-may-have-been-premeditated-70119)** > > Regardless of where the first shot came from, Pyongyang seems to have been setting the stage for this kind of attack as early as last year. For the past two years, the North Koreans have increasingly claimed that they were threatened by American and... > [@](#): > > Regardless of where the first shot came from, Pyongyang seems to have been setting the stage for this kind of attack as early as last year. For the past two years, the North Koreans have increasingly claimed that they were threatened by American and South Korean war games. So when the South conducted counter-proliferation drills with the United States last year, the North’s Korean People’s Army (KPA) declared that it will no longer be bound by the Korean Armistice Agreement and added that it “will not guarantee the legal status” of islands in disputed waters, including Yeonpyeong, the island that was shelled Tuesday. Translation: North Korea believes it is at liberty to attack should it feel provoked. > > What’s more, a relatively unnoticed North Korean military drill in August suggests that Tuesday’s shelling may have been premeditated. On Aug. 9, the North fired about 100 artillery pieces toward South Korean waters. Later that day, North Korean drones were spotted hovering near Yeonpyeong. South Korean defense officials say they believe the North Koreans are using the drones to spy on the South’s troops and weapons stationed on islands such as Yeonpyeong. That, along with the sequence of the exercise, suggests that the communist North has been gearing up for an attack on the island for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/167 "2010-11-26T01:14:34Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I hope you’re right. I support the North Korean nuclear program, as it would guarantee their safety from the would-be Imperial overlords. Who will guarantee the safety of the North Korean people from their brutal, sadistic, and tyrannical overlords that have nuclear weapons and starve their own people so that all available funds go the military and upper party echelon? > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, it’s not as simple as developing a nuke and sticking it on a missile. You must also make the nuke small enough to fit a regular missile or develop an ICBM capable of carrying a regularly-sized nuke. I haven’t seen any indication that the North has developed either of these two technologies. Once again, I hope I’m wrong, but we simply cannot know at the moment (seeing a pattern yet?). An ICBM is a long range missile. Nuclear weapons, once miniaturized, can be made to fit in the warhead of any sizable short, medium, or long range missile. North Korea also has plenty of short and medium range missiles. However, since the North Koreans claim to have launched a satellite into orbit from one, the [Taepodong-2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taepodong-2) could be described as an ICBM. If the Taepodong-2 could carry a decent-sized “communications satellite,” then it could likely carry a non-miniaturized nuclear weapon (although not in a warhead). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/168 "2010-11-26T03:26:27Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I hope you’re right. I support the North Korean nuclear program, as it would guarantee their safety from the would-be Imperial overlords. If there was only some way to transport you to NK in the spirit of fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/169 "2010-11-26T03:32:24Z")
I love the KCNA. [Today’s index](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) lists the newest conflict story, “Panmunjom Mission of KPA Sends Notice to U.S. Forces Side,” as second to “Kim Jong Il Visits New Houses and Pyongyang University of Dance.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/170 "2010-11-26T05:26:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If there was only some way to transport you to NK in the spirit of fighting ignorance. I wonder what the local 부동산 listings are for Yodŏk. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/171 "2010-11-26T08:44:24Z")
Despite you all feverishly dishing **Commisar** , if this _had_ been another Tonkin like situation, you clearly would have fallen for it like a brick. You would have happily cheered on the bombers. In fact some of you are. It is certainly disconcerting to see how easily you yanks are led into yet another war. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/172 "2010-11-26T10:38:13Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Despite you all feverishly dishing **Commisar** , if this _had_ been another Tonkin like situation, you clearly would have fallen for it like a brick. You would have happily cheered on the bombers. In fact some of you are. > > It is certainly disconcerting to see how easily you yanks are led into yet another war. It would be extremely difficult to stage a false flag provocation, particularly one involving multiple pieces of artillery, from within North Korea, despite all the frothing at the mouth of some of the loons on the BBC talkback forums who seem to think every natural and manmade disaster that happens around the world is some sinister US operation. Pray tell, bodhisattva, what is the correct and enlightened response us Yanks are not demonstrating? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/173 "2010-11-26T13:29:08Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Pray tell, bodhisattva, what is the correct and enlightened response us Yanks are not demonstrating? An _aversion_ to bloodshed, dismemberment, destroyed homes, lives, loss of family members etc.. etc.. Instead we see the start of yet more cheering at the prospect of stamping on some more damn furriners. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/174 "2010-11-26T13:37:03Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > An _aversion_ to bloodshed, dismemberment, destroyed homes, lives, loss of family members etc.. etc.. > Instead we see the start of yet more cheering at the prospect of stamping on some more damn furriners. And that is where you fail, I was actually glad that the now dismissed South Korean commander in charge then did not respond recklessly, IMHO it was a mistake to dismiss him. So no, as a person that also took part in the protests in the attempt to prevent the Iraq war, I have to tell you that I already did look at history and many different sources to conclude that in this case the bad guys are not the USA or South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/175 "2010-11-26T16:36:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Nevertheless, it’s not as simple as developing a nuke and sticking it on a missile. You must also make the nuke small enough to fit a regular missile or develop an ICBM capable of carrying a regularly-sized nuke. I haven’t seen any indication that the North has developed either of these two technologies. Once again, I hope I’m wrong, but we simply cannot know at the moment (seeing a pattern yet?). By pattern do you mean that poster blindly following a failed experiment in government? Or do you mean that Western propaganda thing that misleads the (entire) free world again? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/176 "2010-11-26T20:50:18Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Despite you all feverishly dishing **Commisar** , if this _had_ been another Tonkin like situation, you clearly would have fallen for it like a brick. You would have happily cheered on the bombers. In fact some of you are. > > It is certainly disconcerting to see how easily you yanks are led into yet another war. Because it would be wrong to support a free country like SK in deferment to the peace loving paradise that is NK? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/177 "2010-11-26T20:52:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I wonder what the local 부동산 listings are for Yodŏk. Shouldn’t be hard getting in and it would allow visitors to concentrate on their political aspirations. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/178 "2010-11-26T22:49:24Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > An _aversion_ to bloodshed, dismemberment, destroyed homes, lives, loss of family members etc.. etc.. Which side in the current contretemps has so far has displayed a lack of such aversion? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/179 "2010-11-26T23:11:44Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > You are correct to question this, context matters. [Reports I’ve read](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_KOREAS_CLASH?SITE=ORROS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) indicate that the South Koreans, with the help of US “advisors”, provoked the incident. MSM reports I’ve heard make it sound like NK launched an unprovoked attack on SK, proving how crazy NK is. I don’t really see how people can hand wave this and act like it does not matter, when in fact, the oppsite is true. In this case SK provoked NK. There is a long -lasting dispute regarding the maritime borders between North and South Korea. According to North Korea the maritime borders should proceed along the 48th parallel the same as the land border, however, at the time of the armistice, there was a huge US naval presence that occupied almost all the seas surrounding Korea so they claimed almost all the islands surrounding North Korea and South Korea ended up with a claim on almost all the water surrounding North Korea based on those islands. On Tuesday, South Korea engaged in well publicized military drills form those islands by lobbing artillery shells into North Korean waters. North Korea showed up and told them they would use force to retaliate if they shot any more artillery into their waters, South Korea kept doing it and North Korea proceeded to shell the military base from which the military exercise was being conducted. Its not nearly as one sided as we are hearing in our media. South Korea was engaging in provocative activity. It wasn’t that long ago that people were talking about reunification and all that. Then the current conservative Korean president was elected and he started talking tough and relations soured especially after North Korea tested nuclear weapons. There is plenty of blame on both sides for the breakdown in relations but the major shifts in position have come from the change in administration on the South Korean side not by changes in policy on the North Korean side. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645/180 "2010-11-26T23:17:23Z")
The “provocative” shelling of… empty water which led to them “retaliating” by shooting live ordinance at live human beings. Sounds pretty one sided. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/561645.md?page=10)