# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483 "2010-12-09T00:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/201 "2010-12-13T03:42:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > An aside: I’m still laughing over an avowed communist saying any job is beneath him. How could that be when all are equal? How can oen job be more important than another when the only rubric is “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need”? Saying a job is beneath one brands one as a classist! That came up in an earlier thread, and was vigorously hand-waved aside. I’d guess that he’s holding out for an engraved invitation to migrate to Belarus so that they can appoint him Ambassador to the U.S. Just a guess, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/202 "2010-12-13T03:46:00Z")
Commisar’s last post proves he is completely delusional. (Not that any of is earlier posts were wanting in that regard, mind you.) ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/203 "2010-12-13T03:51:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > An aside: I’m still laughing over an avowed communist saying any job is beneath him. How could that be when all are equal? How can oen job be more important than another when the only rubric is “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need”? Saying a job is beneath one brands one as a classist! Interestingly enough, you quoted the answer to your own question, but failed to see the significance thereof. I emphasize: “From each according to his **ability** …” That word is not just meaningless filler. We all have different abilities, and the best system is one that will take advantage of it. The vast majority of people can work on a farm, and I am one of them. A small minority of people can engage in complex intellectual labor, and I am one of them as well. To put me on a farm would be to waste my personal abilities. Sure, we can send everyone out into the fields, but that is going to result in a society without physicians, lawyers, computer specialists, engineers, artists, and so forth. In such a system, abilities would be disregarded, and needs thus not met. In short, all labor is worthwhile and needs someone to do it. That someone should be whoever’s personal maximum potential is met by the work in question. Working below one’s abilities is wasteful, irresponsible, and demeaning. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/204 "2010-12-13T03:54:42Z")
**Commissar** , assuming your mother wasn’t a herpes dripping whore that raised a craven coward who can’t live up to his insane gibberish, why don’t you move to a communist country? What’s stopping you? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/205 "2010-12-13T04:00:13Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Well, I’m intrigued. Can you perhaps elaborate on how it is that my theories lack internal consistency? This is a serious question: if there are any logical flaws (rather than irrelevant differences of opinion) therein, I would like to be made aware of this fact so that I can streamline my theory. Logic has nothing to do with your posts. You believe what you believe, and are blind to anything other than what you believe. Usually we get religious fanatics, but with you it is a political bent rather than a religious bent. Too bad you have to live with yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/206 "2010-12-13T04:13:29Z")
So far the only ability that I see our commissioner of apologists have is to be proud of making mistakes. At least is useful for something, as the famous demotivator poster says: “It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.” [http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/ALsHnP/www.shof.msrcsites.co.uk/mis.html](http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/ALsHnP/www.shof.msrcsites.co.uk/mis.html) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/207 "2010-12-13T04:44:11Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > My conclusion is aligned with that of the Chinese judicial system. This is a person that has dedicated a considerable portion of his life to undermining Chinese peace and stability. And you skipped over my main point: He is jailed for speaking out and you are allowed to be free for doing the same. Why aren’t you in jail? What could be the difference? > [@](#): > > Indeed, I applaud the leniency of the Chinese judicial system. This type of high treason can easily be held to call for the death penalty. I am glad that the Chinese authorities are restraining themselves and choosing to err on the side of mercy. This is truly what socialism is all about; even an enemy of the people is given yet another chance to redeem himself and cease his nefarious ways. And yet here you are, free to post your drivel on the internet with no worry that the government you despise will come along and jail you, or because they are no where near as merciful, put you to death for your words. It amazes me how cavalier you are with the potential death of a fellow human being for doing exactly what you are doing, yet you sit safely in your mother’s basement while he sits in a jail thankful that he was killed. Really, what is so delicate about a system that can’t withstand criticism? Why are they so afraid of words like ‘freedom’ and ‘human rights’? It seems that those countries who are run by dictators and theocrats have the same fears. Any Sesame Street graduate can see what things are the same and which are not. Yet you can’t. > [@](#): > > Nope. As mentioned previously, apart from self-defense, I also make an exception for wars of liberation intended to bring rogue and/or stolen territories back into the state’s fold. Not even going to bother with this one. Let someone else shoot this low hanging fruit. > [@](#): > > It will come when the time is right; in the interim, it is not our place to tell other people how to live. There is nothing inherently wrong in respecting the right of a populace to embrace fascism. To each their own. No, you only think it is correct to tell your own people how to live. And you’ll kill them if they don’t follow your rules. Rules that you personally don’t live by, but expect others to do. Or except when they are rogue states, etc. Then you’ll attempt to kill them, too. > [@](#): > > What is the difference between night and day? At its most fundamental level, authoritarian socialism is a system of justice, freedom, and equality - a system that wholeheartedly embraces fundamental positive rights and seeks to make the world a better place for its people. Except when someone disagrees and then the Gulag or the gallows for them. > [@](#): > > Fascism is the antithesis of this philosophy - it is a dark and corrupt ideology built on capitalist subjugation, the elimination of human rights, and a violent propensity for imperialist expansion. The two could not be more different. Other than the word ‘capitalist’, how is that different than what was practiced in the USSR, again? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/208 "2010-12-13T06:05:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, you do realize that \*\*FinnAgain \*\*was not the one pitted? I didn’t say he was pitted here. Actually, I guess I never pitted him. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, Damuri… you posted to this thread for the sole purpose of saying, “Gosh, I sure hope me putting FinnAgain on ignore (which I simply _must_ since he brings out just the _worst_ in me) won’t make this thread too hard to follow.” Not just this thread. EVERY thread. > [@](#): > > Aren’t we such a brave yet transparent little soldier. Not sure what you mean by this. Do you think Finn debates in good faith or does he simply attack anyone that he disagrees with? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/209 "2010-12-13T06:12:54Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Yes, that is certainly the impression I’ve developed during my thankfully limited interactions with the pompous buffoon. It does not appear that FinnAgain is actually interested in debating anything at all in an intellectual manner; his sole reason for participating appears to be a stifling of discourse via a handful of disingenuous and slimy tricks (hysterical name-calling, ignoring any and all facts that contradict his own biases, incessant parroting of questions that have been consistently answered numerous times in the same thread, and so forth). His posts ooze narcissism and ignorance in equal measures. Were I to use such terms, I would certainly label him a “troll” in the true internet meaning of the term. > > Oh, well. I doubt that the ignorant little parasite will be going away any time soon, so I suppose that we will have to learn to filter out his shrill antics and lowbrow diatribes. Perhaps one day he will grow tired of undermining debates and move on to bigger and better things (in my own mind, I picture him as a wonderfully stereotypical deranged street-corner preacher; I think that would be a logical evolution for him). Its not that he is wrong all the time, its his method of debate (if you want to call it that). Some people are OK with it (he even seems to have a few fanbois) and I think its counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/210 "2010-12-13T06:24:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, yes, I figured Damuri deserved it for defending North Korea for no other reason than he saw some vague analogy to Israel/Palestine. > > “I’m not apologizing for North Korea, just that they’re like the Palestinians, and South Korea and the U.S. are like Israel, and since Israel is bad, South Korea and the U.S. must be bad, mmmmkay?” Really??? So when I said that NK was one of the worst regimes on earth, you took that to mean that I was analogizing them to the Palestinians? If you look back I brought up the Palestinians in the context of how Finn seems to have one set of rules when it comes to Israel another set of rules when it comes to anyone else’s right to anyone else. My defense of NK was limited to countering the inaccurate statements that NK engaged in unprovoked attacks on civilians. In order to reach that conclusion you would have to find that the artillery exercise was not provocative and that the NK barrage was aimed at the civilians on the island rather than the military base on the island. If your point is that the barrage was an overreaction, then sure, I agree, they went too far. Someone suggested that the appropriate reaction would have been to shell the exact same patch of water that the SK artillery shelled, sounds good to me. If your point is that they were reckless about civilian casualties and in fact commited war crimes by causing civilian casualties using indiscriminate and excessive force, then fine. But if your argument is “WAAAAHHHH, they’re NK so everything they do is automatically evil and anyone that criticizes them about anything is autopmatically correct” then you lost me. > [@](#): > > What a schmuck, though at this point I figure his schmuckitude at least stems from sincere beliefs I don’t think you have the faintest clue what I have said in that thread other than the fact that I haven’t been damning NK quite enthusiastically enough for your taste (after all I do condemn NK, not just for its attack but also for being NK). Perhaps you lack the optical receptors that allow you to see shades of gray. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/211 "2010-12-13T06:40:50Z")
This is just another example of how Damri is not particularly bright. He’s desperate to draw an equivalence between one group launching rockets with murderous intent at another group’s populated areas and another having a training exercise where they fire artillery, with no malice, into their own territory that happens to be open ocean. And this shows my dastardly double standards. He’s just sore that he’s had his head kicked in on the facts so often on middle eastern matters and has a grudge about it, so he decided that the NK thread was a good place to try to play out that grudge. Of course, he has many different types of idiocy. Like his “provoked” fallacy of equivocation whereby any “provocative” action can be said to be a provocation for a war crime. Or his “not targeting civilians” when NK obviously targeted the entire island’s populace for potential death and dismemberment. Or his “they were really targeting a military base” when all the evidence shows that he’s simply making that up as part of his apologia for NK. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/212 "2010-12-13T07:10:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but trucks and telephones and canned food and aluminum were all Soviet inventions that were stolen by the Americans in the first place! It’s just missing something without Chekov saying “It vas a Russian inwention!” ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/213 "2010-12-13T07:43:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And you skipped over my main point: He is jailed for speaking out and you are allowed to be free for doing the same. Why aren’t you in jail? What could be the difference? The difference is that I am not breaking any criminal statutes with my actions. Once again, all nations set their own laws, and it is not for you to decry them. I would no more criticize the government in China than I would buy alcohol in Saudi Arabia or deny the Holocaust in Germany. What’s missing from your diatribe is a respect for the laws of the land. The criminal in question knew that his actions constituted a crime, and chose to disregard that simple fact. Guilty; done and done. Hopefully he’ll have something to think about over the next decade. Incidentally, the Imperial laws are not much different in this regard. Agitating for criminal action is very much out of the realm of First Amendment Protection - see incitement to criminal activity. > [@](#): > > Really, what is so delicate about a system that can’t withstand criticism? Why are they so afraid of words like ‘freedom’ and ‘human rights’? It seems that those countries who are run by dictators and theocrats have the same fears. Any Sesame Street graduate can see what things are the same and which are not. Yet you can’t. From what I gather, it wasn’t the “human rights” thing that got him in hot water. It was the other minor thing - you know, calling for the overthrow of the government and all that. And trying to get others involved in his fledgling rebellion. Yeah, I can’t possibly see why any government would take issue with that. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Not even going to bother with this one. Let someone else shoot this low hanging fruit. Capitulation accepted. > [@](#): > > No, you only think it is correct to tell your own people how to live. And you’ll kill them if they don’t follow your rules. Rules that you personally don’t live by, but expect others to do. Or except when they are rogue states, etc. Then you’ll attempt to kill them, too. No, not really. I’m much more in favor of the Chinese model, which imposes true socialism while also allowing for entrepreneurial market participation. Also, I’m in favor of China’s open door policy - people that truly cannot stomach the system should be perfectly free to leave. Finally, like China, I would only impose the death sentence for extremely serious crimes. Hell, I wouldn’t even advocate death in this case, and we’re discussing a true traitor to his people here. > [@](#): > > Except when someone disagrees and then the Gulag or the gallows for them. See above. Also, I would generally allow for most dissent. However, the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and calling for the collapse of your government seems like a good place to lay it down. > [@](#): > > Other than the word ‘capitalist’, how is that different than what was practiced in the USSR, again? By taking an agrarian backwater and turning it into a proletariat superpower that carefully nurtured and protected its people. From having nothing, we went to having free health care, guaranteed housing, multi-year fully-paid maternity leave, you name it. The Empire still doesn’t have any of that, I might add… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/214 "2010-12-13T11:07:47Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > From having nothing, we went to having free health care We? You are Chinese now? Once again, you are wilfully blind to the facts. China does not have anything close to free health care: [Health in China - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health-care_in_China) > [@](#): > > The system is tiered, depending on the location. If patients go to a small hospital or clinic in their local town, the system will cover roughly 70-80% of their bill . If the patient visits a county clinic, the percentage of the cost being covered falls to about 60% . If the patient requires a specialist in a modern city hospital, the plan would cover about 30% of the bill . ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/215 "2010-12-13T11:16:15Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > multi-year fully-paid maternity leave, you name it. I name it nonsense. China’s 90 days is not multi-year. Once again you are being wilfully blind to the facts. [Parental leave - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Asia.2FPacific) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/216 "2010-12-13T11:46:10Z")
The USSR collapsed, so whatever it did have with respect to health care and maternity leave is moot, for it was not sustainable. Now you are tying your horse to China, which does not have benefits anywhere near these. When come back, bring facts. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/217 "2010-12-13T11:55:33Z")
Ah, if only the USSR had lasted… a few more Chernobyls would’ve helped toughen up the Earth’s immune system, like getting flu shots. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/218 "2010-12-13T12:04:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > We? You are Chinese now? Give it a few months and another IP address, I’m sure Commy will be back as Glorious Celestial Bureaucrat. Although I must note that Commy, the American citizen, was talking about the Soviet Union in that quote ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/219 "2010-12-13T15:30:30Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The difference is that I am not breaking any criminal statutes with my actions. Once again, all nations set their own laws, and it is not for you to decry them. The Communists have adapted Reagan’s 11th Commandment. I guess that’s progress for you. > [@Commissar](#): > > That is a reasonable assumption, and one that I used to share. Then I became older and wiser, and set out to discover the truth. On my yearly trips back to Belarus, I would ask all my relatives, friends, and friends’ relatives to recount their experiences under socialist rule. Shockingly, not a single one could point to the type of outrageous conduct widely portrayed by the Imperial media. Too bad you couldn’t ask the dead. > [@](#): > > I have searched long and hard, and I can still not name a single person that has ever been executed by the USSR. I’m seeing some weasel wording in that “By the USSR” phrasing. > [@](#): > > Nope; I am what I am. None of this is a charade. Whether you’re lying to yourself or lying to us is beyond my ability to determine at the moment. But it’s at least one of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/220 "2010-12-13T18:33:45Z")
Is **Commissar** back on the glories of Belarus again? The festering sore on the ass of Europe? :rolleyes: Here’s how the United Nations Commission on Human Rights describes the place, “the Republic of Belarus is characterized by the systematic violation of civil and political rights.” Fun times in the people’s paradise. The UN also makes note of police using torture to extract confessions, the beating of journalists who attempt to speak out against the State, and forced labor. Oh, and the State has the right to take your children away without explination _and_ require you to continue paying for their stay in an orphanage/foster home at whatever cost they wish to set. Incidentally, **Commissar** , it’s quite possible nobody told you about anything bad happening in Belarus because it’s illegal to talk about it. (Articles 188-189 and 367-369 of the Belarus Criminal Code) Committing such crimes as “defaming the government” or “insulting the president” carry penalties of 2-5 years in prision. Prisons that are just as comfortable as you’d expect from a shithole dictatorship. Since the office of the president controls the courts, “insulting” is whatever Lukashenko says it is that day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483.md?page=12)