# N. and S. Korea firing artillery at each other **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483 "2010-12-09T00:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/221 "2010-12-13T20:26:55Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Is **Commissar** back on the glories of Belarus again? The festering sore on the ass of Europe? :rolleyes: > > Here’s how the United Nations Commission on Human Rights describes the place, “the Republic of Belarus is characterized by the systematic violation of civil and political rights.” Fun times in the people’s paradise. The UN also makes note of police using torture to extract confessions, the beating of journalists who attempt to speak out against the State, and forced labor. Oh, and the State has the right to take your children away without explination _and_ require you to continue paying for their stay in an orphanage/foster home at whatever cost they wish to set. > > Incidentally, **Commissar** , it’s quite possible nobody told you about anything bad happening in Belarus because it’s illegal to talk about it. (Articles 188-189 and 367-369 of the Belarus Criminal Code) Committing such crimes as “defaming the government” or “insulting the president” carry penalties of 2-5 years in prision. Prisons that are just as comfortable as you’d expect from a shithole dictatorship. Since the office of the president controls the courts, “insulting” is whatever Lukashenko says it is that day. What you conveniently disregard is the fact that the assorted human right organizations exist solely to find human rights violations, and will do so in almost all cases. This should give you some pause before you start hurling stones from within your own glass house. For example, let’s take a look at the Human Right’s Committee’s 2006 report concerning Imperial compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, available here: [http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/0d83f7fe89d83ed6c12571fb00411eb5/$FILE/G0644318.pdf](http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/0d83f7fe89d83ed6c12571fb00411eb5/$FILE/G0644318.pdf) [PDF file]. Let’s look at some highlights from this report, shall we? All emphasis added. "The Committee notes the submission of the State party’s second and third periodic combined report, which was **seven years overdue** , as well as the written answers provided in advance… The Committee notes with concern the **restrictive interpretation** made by the State party of its obligations under the Covenant… The Committee expresses its concern about the potentially overbroad reach of the definitions of terrorism under domestic law, in particular under 8 U.S.C. § 1182 (a) (3) (B) and Executive Order 13224 which seem to extend to conduct, e.g. in the context of **political dissent** … The Committee is concerned by credible and **uncontested information that the State party has seen fit to engage in the practice of detaining people secretly and in secret places for months and years on end** , without keeping the International Committee of the Red Cross informed… The Committee notes with concern **shortcomings concerning the independence, impartiality and effectiveness of investigations **into allegations of** torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment** inflicted by United States military and non-military personnel or contract employees… The Committee is concerned with reports that some 50 % of homeless people are African American although they constitute only 12 % of the United States population… The Committee notes with concern reports of **de facto racial segregation in public schools** , reportedly caused by discrepancies between the racial and ethnic composition of large urban districts and their surrounding suburbs, and the manner in which schools districts are created, funded and regulated. The Committee is concerned that the State party, despite measures adopted, **has not succeeded in eliminating racial discrimination** such as regarding the **wide disparities in the quality of education across school districts in metropolitan areas, to the detriment of minority students** … It also notes with concern information about **racial disparities and discrimination in prosecuting and sentencing processes in the criminal justice system** … The Committee notes with concern allegations of **widespread incidence of violent crime perpetrated against persons of minority sexual orientation, including by law enforcement officials** … The Committee reiterates its concern about reports of **police brutality and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials** … It is concerned about information according to which police have \*\*used tasers against unruly schoolchildren; mentally disabled or intoxicated individuals involved in disturbed but non-lifethreatening behaviour; elderly people; pregnant women; unarmed suspects fleeing minor crime scenes and people who argue with officers \*\*or simply fail to comply with police commands, without in most cases the responsible officers being found to have violated their departments’ policies… The Committee notes with concern that no action has been taken by the State party to address its previous recommendation relating to the **extinguishment of aboriginal and indigenous rights** …" Yeah, the Empire is a wonderful example of respecting individuals’ human rights. :rolleyes: Go, you. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/222 "2010-12-13T22:16:26Z")
Heh, first off that’s defamation of the government, **Commissar** , and a minimum sentence of two years in prison. Lucky for you that you’re a US citizen, eh? The UN doesn’t like Gitmo, the Patriot Act, or the death penalty? You don’t say. I don’t either. And unlike you I’m not an ideologue who’s going try and make some lame ass excuse about them. Besides, I’d think those were three things you _liked_ about the USA. Yes, we have a homelessness problem. Yes, it’s tragic. No, I don’t have an excuse for it either. So does a proclaimed socialist state like Belarus. (You can find articles about the homeless freezing to death in the winter there.) That doesn’t suprise me though, since homelessness is one of those problems that’s going to be with humanity for a long time, socialist or not. What does suprise me is that you seem to think that somehow compares to the government forcibly taking your children because you said something bad about them. Yes, we have racism and prejudice in the US. Yes, it’s bad thing. No, it’s not supported by the government which has passed laws covering hate crimes and segregation. At least Obama hasn’t openly praised Hitler or refered to Israel and Jewish neighborhoods as, “frightening pigstyes.” Unlike Lukashenko. If the best example of unpunished police brutalitly you can come up with is the unnecessary tasering of criminal suspects we aren’t doing that bad. Not that it’s okay that it happens, but tasering is a far cry from “real” police brutality. And did you even make it all the way through the first sentence in the part about Native Americans? There were two points to it. First, they were concerned about the potential for abuse with the Individual Indian Money accounts managed by the government. Not that they found any, but the potential was there. (To do your work for you, it turned out there was some abuse. In 2009 the government paid an additional $3.4 billion into the accounts and instituted new policies on the way the money is handled. So it’s not really applicable anymore.) The second part about the US treatment of Native Americans? The USA has yet to officially apologise for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii despite their recommendation we do so. Clearly a terrible thing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/223 "2010-12-13T22:34:03Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Yes, we have a homelessness problem. Yes, it’s tragic. No, I don’t have an excuse for it either. So does a proclaimed socialist state like Belarus. (You can find articles about the homeless freezing to death in the winter there.) This reminds me - one thing that we _are_ actually pretty good at in the US is keeping homeless people from freezing to death. Some of them still do - not everyone seeks shelter. But most large cities do have hypothermia hotlines, and if you see someone who needs help, you can call them and they’ll send out a shuttle. Of course, if you see someone who’re really obviously in a bad way, the correct number is 911- but if you just see a guy begging in the cold, offering to call a transport is a nice thing to do. Google [your city name] + hypothermia hotline to get the appropriate number. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/224 "2010-12-13T23:42:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > What you conveniently disregard is the fact that the assorted human right organizations exist solely to find human rights violations, and will do so in almost all cases. This should give you some pause before you start hurling stones from within your own glass house. > > For example, let’s take a look at the Human Right’s Committee’s 2006 report concerning Imperial compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, available here: [http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/0d83f7fe89d83ed6c12571fb00411eb5/$FILE/G0644318.pdf](http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/0d83f7fe89d83ed6c12571fb00411eb5/$FILE/G0644318.pdf) [PDF file]. > > Let’s look at some highlights from this report, shall we? All emphasis added. > > "The Committee notes the submission of the State party’s second and third periodic combined report, which was **seven years overdue** , as well as the written answers provided in advance… The Committee notes with concern the **restrictive interpretation** made by the State party of its obligations under the Covenant… The Committee expresses its concern about the potentially overbroad reach of the definitions of terrorism under domestic law, in particular under 8 U.S.C. § 1182 (a) (3) (B) and Executive Order 13224 which seem to extend to conduct, e.g. in the context of **political dissent** … > > The Committee is concerned by credible and **uncontested information that the State party has seen fit to engage in the practice of detaining people secretly and in secret places for months and years on end** , without keeping the International Committee of the Red Cross informed… > > The Committee notes with concern **shortcomings concerning the independence, > impartiality and effectiveness of investigations **into allegations of** torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment** inflicted by United States military and non-military personnel or contract employees… > > The Committee is concerned with reports that some 50 % of homeless people are African American although they constitute only 12 % of the United States population… The Committee notes with concern reports of **de facto racial segregation in public schools** , reportedly caused by discrepancies between the racial and ethnic composition of large urban districts and their surrounding suburbs, and the manner in which schools districts are created, funded and regulated. The Committee is concerned that the State party, despite measures adopted, **has not succeeded in eliminating racial discrimination** such as regarding the **wide disparities in the quality of education across school districts in metropolitan areas, to the detriment of minority students** … It also notes with concern information about **racial disparities and discrimination in prosecuting and sentencing processes in the criminal justice system** … > > The Committee notes with concern allegations of **widespread incidence of violent crime perpetrated against persons of minority sexual orientation, including by law enforcement officials** … > > The Committee reiterates its concern about reports of **police brutality and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials** … It is > concerned about information according to which police have \*\*used tasers against unruly schoolchildren; mentally disabled or intoxicated individuals involved in disturbed but non-lifethreatening behaviour; elderly people; pregnant women; unarmed suspects fleeing minor crime scenes and people who argue with officers \*\*or simply fail to comply with police commands, without in most cases the responsible officers being found to have violated their departments’ policies… > > The Committee notes with concern that no action has been taken by the State party to address its previous recommendation relating to the **extinguishment of aboriginal and indigenous rights** …" > > Yeah, the Empire is a wonderful example of respecting individuals’ human rights. :rolleyes: Go, you. The majority of the things you have quoted here, you approve of. I fail to see why you’re upset about them being done. Further note, that there are a lot… and I mean A LOT of folks that pretty much disregard anything that comes out of the UN Committee on Human Rights. It, like many other UN bodies, has turned into a “bash the US” club. And rightly so. Any committee on Human Rights that includes China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia and other nations with EXTREME human rights issues is a sham, and a mockery. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/225 "2010-12-13T23:48:20Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Working below one’s abilities is wasteful, irresponsible, and demeaning. Heh. I guess China, Belarus, and North Korea have a different view of your abilities than you do. Face it, pal. You’re stuck here. Stuck in a place where the motto is, “You will not be shot or imprisoned for disagreeing with the government.” Good luck! I hope things work out for you and that you are not shot or imprisoned for your views. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/226 "2010-12-13T23:59:19Z")
Hey, **Frank** , is it okay if I hope that he actually ends up residing either in the PRC or the DPRK with that citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/227 "2010-12-14T00:12:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Hey, **Frank** , is it okay if I hope that he actually ends up residing either in the PRC or the DPRK with that citizenship? Well, he could do a little research on the lives of the U.S. soldiers who defected to North Korea during the 50s and 60s. Wait . . . Research? **Commissar**? Who am I kidding? Most interesting is [Charles Jenkins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Robert_Jenkins), who married a Japanese woman abducted by North Korea from Japan to be a (heh) language teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/228 "2010-12-14T15:06:20Z")
n/m wrong thread ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/229 "2010-12-15T00:52:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > A small minority of people can engage in complex intellectual labor, and I am one of them as well. So far you have demonstrated quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/230 "2010-12-15T01:35:48Z")
Historically, under ANY form of Government, the number of people capable of complex intellectual labor who actually have the opportunity to engage in the same is quite small. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/231 "2010-12-15T03:07:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Historically, under ANY form of Government, the number of people capable of complex intellectual labor who actually have the opportunity to engage in the same is quite small. However there’s plenty of need for ditches to be dug. Don’t matter how smart you are, the shovel don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/232 "2010-12-15T03:38:18Z")
Then there was the Khmer Rouge, who decided that the best way to enforce true socialism was to KILL ALL INTELLECTUALS. Commissar styles himself an intellectual. In authoritarian socialist states, more often than not the people in power decide that these types are a threat to their rule and pre-emptively take steps against them. Then too, every time I see Commy’s posts, I am reminded of **The Gulag Archipelago** and Solzhenitsyn’s comments about the “true believers” who had been sent to the Gulag for petty reasons or flat out made up bullshit, but who remained utterly convinced that it was all just a mistake and they would be released and returned to their former stations in life at any moment. But I guess he’s never read those books. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/233 "2010-12-15T04:28:30Z")
Recent articles on the issue: [Marines recount NK’s deadly shelling of Yeonpyeong](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/12/113_78045.html) [Seoulnot safe from artillery attacks](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/12/117_77036.html) This one should be good for Commissar to read: [Police probing Internet cafe praising North Korea](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/12/117_77038.html) [NK deploys more multiple-launch rockets](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/12/117_77411.html) [More Yeonpyeong residents returning home](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/12/117_77495.html) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/234 "2010-12-15T04:42:12Z")
And now from another newspaper here: [Int’l court reviewing actions by the North](http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929366) [Actions speak louder than words](http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929385) [ICC looks at war crimes case against N. Korea](http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929419) [‘Consensus’ between North, China](http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2929480) ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/235 "2010-12-15T04:47:53Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Working below one’s abilities is wasteful, irresponsible, and demeaning. Huh. That would be a surprising thing to my father… An honest-to-God working Rocket Scientist and Aeronautical Engineer. With advanced degrees in mathmatics and economics to go with his Doctorate. In short, a _bone fide fucking genius_. Who also dug ditches, and roughnecked in the oilfields. See, it seems working at physical labor actually pays rather well if you’re willing to bust your ass without whining about getting dirty. “Working below one’s abilities” saw him to multiple degrees from CalTech. Then again, I’m fairly certain you don’t understand concepts like “Work,” “physical labor,” and “bust your ass.” Which shows what a shitty Communist you are. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/236 "2010-12-15T12:53:03Z")
It’s like when I was trolling the Che-Lives board. One of the questions was “What will you do when the revolution comes?” Most of the folks answered that they would either be a spy/assassin, or they would make a good general, directing troops. That would be **Commy** , “I am super smart, so I will make an excellent general! Besides, actually picking up a rifle and slogging in the mud is beneath my.” **Commissar** is classist, of the very worst sort. And a traitor to the revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/237 "2010-12-15T16:04:30Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > It’s like when I was trolling the Che-Lives board. One of the questions was “What will you do when the revolution comes?” > > Most of the folks answered that they would either be a spy/assassin, or they would make a good general, directing troops. That would be **Commy** , “I am super smart, so I will make an excellent general! Besides, actually picking up a rifle and slogging in the mud is beneath my.” > > **Commissar** is classist, of the very worst sort. And a traitor to the revolution. Well, there will be a lot of jubilation and enthusiasm during and immediately after the revolution, but like a teenage girl with body issues that binge will be inevitably lead to a purge. Where I’d end up could depend on how the revolutionaries feel (or, more accurately, how the thugs who will end up in control after eliminating their revolutionary rivals feel) about Jews. I might have to seriously consider heading for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/238 "2010-12-15T16:45:15Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I do, however, make an exception for nations that forcefully assimilate other states as long as the following two preconditions are met: > (1) The target state has had a long and established history as part of the aggressor state. > (2) The invasion is conducted as a good faith exercise of liberation for the benefit of the target state’s populace. “This heah Commisar fella, he doesn’t misunderestimate me, heh, heh. I’m glad to have him on my side as we launch Operation Iraqi Freedom…” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/239 "2010-12-15T16:48:23Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The two could not be more different. Under fascism, man oppresses man; under communism, the reverse is true. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483/240 "2010-12-15T16:53:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > At this point, my friend, you have ceased being internally consistent by any standard. Even a Jesuit, my friend, could not follow your gaps in logic and self-contraindications. I am reminded of an old joke about a young man who, in the spirit of going along to get along, tried to absorb the State’s lessons about Marxist philosophy but simply couldn’t make any sense of them. In desperation, he resorted to discreetly consulting his rabbi. The rabbi thought for a moment, and finally said, “I shall illustrate by a parable. Two men climb down a chimney. When they reach the bottom, one is dirty but the other somehow comes out clean. Which one washes himself?” “The dirty one, of course!” The rabbi shook his head. “No. Each of them sees the other, and so the clean one believes that he is dirty and the dirty one believes that he is clean, so the clean one goes to wash himself. Now, two men climb down a chimney. When they reach the bottom, one is dirty but the other somehow comes out clean. Which one washes himself?” “You already asked that question! Well, now that you’ve explained it, it would be the clean one.” The rabbi shook his head again. “No. Each of them looks at his own hands, and so the clean one knows that he is clean, and the dirty one knows that he is dirty and goes to wash himself. Now, two men climb down a chimney…” “Stop! You’re just making things up so it will come out the way you want!” The rabbi smiled. “A-ha! **Now** you understand Marxist philosophy!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-and-s-korea-firing-artillery-at-each-other/563483.md?page=13)