# N. Korea torpedoed the S. Korean ship: chest thumping or something more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103 "2010-05-20T05:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/21 "2010-05-21T18:40:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That would then be assassination, not execution. If his own government rubs him out, it’s execution. Ok, that gets a series of ???. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/22 "2010-05-21T18:56:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Allowing North Korea to obtain nuclear weapons was the dumbest thing this planet has managed in a long time. The planet allows everyone to do anything. One-world government bad and all. Viva nuclear-armed sovereignty for all! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/23 "2010-05-21T19:19:43Z")
Remember, **Sam** was also insistent that the Americans no longer “allow” Saddam to have WMD’s. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/24 "2010-05-21T21:06:57Z")
Sorry if this point was already mentioned: Imho, NK feels a sense of impunity and entitlement. They keep getting more and more aggressive, basically to see what the international result is. So far, the result has been wrist-slapping or nothing severe. Imho, this last incident was going too far, and the response must be in a language they can understand and respect. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/25 "2010-05-21T23:14:18Z")
Here’s my offer; $500 million for the head of Kim Jong-il, delivered on a silver plate to the SK government. $2.5 billion for the entire Kim family and all nuclear weapons and weapon making equipment. $5 billion + $500 million per year in aid if they’ll do all of the above, destroy all statues and monuments to the Kim Dynasty, throw in all of their artillery pieces and missiles pointed at SK, sign a peace treaty and begin opening their society. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/26 "2010-05-21T23:51:58Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Sorry if this point was already mentioned: > > Imho, NK feels a sense of impunity and entitlement. They keep getting more and more aggressive, basically to see what the international result is. So far, the result has been wrist-slapping or nothing severe. > > Imho, this last incident was going too far, and the response must be in a language they can understand and respect. Wouldn’t it be even more hurtful just to ignore them? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/27 "2010-05-21T23:58:02Z")
The problem is exactly **what** is a language that they understand and respect?. sinking some NK ship would not hurt Kim et all too much, probably would help them play the victim to the international comunity and the “us vs them” ploy at home, so, what can be done?. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/28 "2010-05-22T00:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=Frodo] The problem is exactly what is a language that they understand and respect?. sinking some NK ship would not hurt Kim et all too much, probably would help them play the victim to the international comunity and the “us vs them” ploy at home, so, what can be done?. [/QUOTE] That’s the quandary. We could impose more sanctions for a while (I seriously doubt that the NK’s are REALLY going to treat any act at all as an ‘act of war’, despite their rhetoric), but the sanctions really don’t hurt the Dear Leader (antlers and all), they hurt the common folks…who are already seriously suffering under this lunatic. Sanctions don’t really hurt the military that much either, and international censure is, well, laughable, at least to these guys. It’s not like it’s going to put a serious crimp in their tourist trade or anything. On the other hand, war would be devastating. While I have zero doubts who would win, SK and probably Japan (not to mention trade in the region) would be hurt as well, and in the short term the common NK’s life would be even more miserable as we bombed the crap out of their infrastructure (this is massive understatement btw…in good years the average NK does ok food and clothing wise, but even without war there are periodic starvation events and huge winter shortages of basics like fuel). So that doesn’t seem to be a viable option either. And, of course, there is the wild card in the form of the NK nukes. Basically there ARE no good options, which is why letting rogue states like this one get their hands on massive armaments (let alone nukes) without trimming them back isn’t really such a good idea, horrible mutterings about American Imperialism aside. At this point I’d say the best that can be done is to take a minimalist course wrt North Korea. Sanctions. Meaningless international censure. Maybe some pressure on China to get off their asses and DO something (they are SUPPOSED to be the regional power after all, plus supposedly NK is in their sphere of influence). Other than that, just hope it blows over, that lil’ Kimmy and his merry men simmer down and go back to hookers and blow and forget about all this, and that sometime in the future the NK maniacs in charge go for the big drop, but don’t take their entire country, not to mention the entire region, down with them. If you let folks like this get the power they have been allowed to get and maintain, then ‘hope’ is pretty much the only strategy remaining. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/29 "2010-05-22T01:21:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > they hurt the common folks…who are already seriously suffering under this lunatic. Not only are the common folk suffering in North Korea, the same common folk blame South Korea and the United States for their suffering. They believe that it would be worse if KJI were not there saving them. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/30 "2010-05-22T12:10:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Basically there ARE no good options, which is why letting rogue states like this one get their hands on massive armaments (let alone nukes) without trimming them back isn’t really such a good idea, horrible mutterings about American Imperialism aside. But how could anybody stop NK from getting massive armaments and nukes?, they got out of the Cold War with the massive armaments, as said above, any body with a budget and 1940’s tech can get nukes nowadays, so they were pretty much guaranteed to get nukes too. The only option as you said, seems to be to wait and hope, perhaps an opportunity will present itself. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/31 "2010-05-22T12:16:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > At this point I’d say the best that can be done is to take a minimalist course wrt North Korea. Sanctions. Meaningless international censure. Maybe some pressure on China to get off their asses and DO something (they are SUPPOSED to be the regional power after all, plus supposedly NK is in their sphere of influence). Other than that, just hope it blows over, In other words, you advocate doing essentially nothing. Leaving NK with the unmistakable message that they _can_ sink a SK ship, kill SK sailors with impunity. Even odds that next time it will be Americans who die. Then what? More sanctions and censure and hope? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/32 "2010-05-22T12:18:04Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > In other words, you advocate doing essentially nothing. Leaving NK with the unmistakable message that they _can_ sink a SK ship, kill SK sailors with impunity. Even odds that next time it will be Americans who die. Then what? More sanctions and censure and hope? What’s the other option? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/33 "2010-05-22T12:24:16Z")
Bottom line; “No” becomes the order of the day. No additional sactions (won’t pass with Chinese opposition), no military action, etc. But also; No aid. Period. No negotiations. No rewards, no contacts, no recognition, no assistance…_Nothing_. Silence. Emptiness. It is entirely up to South Korea, as they are the point here and the US should only be playing a supporting role (Ally, not Overlord) in allowing them to make the key decisions here with the US backing them all the way. I would hope that they would shut down their part of the Kaesong Economic Zone and pull their companies out of NK, but that is entirely their decision, not ours. I would hope that they would end all mutual cooperation for a period of several years, to show North Korea that this cooperation is only based on good behavior, and will not continue in the face of threats and acts of war. But again, this is their decision and they have to come to it of their own accord, not under US pressure. And honestly, I think we should be making that clear. That this is South Korea’s business and we as their ally are only playing a supporting role here, not making or forcing the major decisions. This takes away the North Korean regime’s ability to say “See, the US is running the show, the South are only their puppets!” ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/34 "2010-05-22T12:24:20Z")
Anyway, internal pressure will possibly force the SK government to “do something”, whether or not it gets any positive results at all. If they kill American servicemen then internal pressures will get pretty much overwhelming on Obama to do something BIG, and then all bets are off, NK knows this and hopefully they’ll be sane enough not to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/35 "2010-05-22T12:44:55Z")
Right now, I think the _best_ option for avoiding war would probably have been a counterstrike within the first few days after the sinking. I understand how that would have been a hard decision to make, and _any_ decision on how to handle NK is fraught with uncertainty and peril. I am not being cavalier. But, hard as it may generally be to predict what NK will do, I am reasonably confident that _not_ retaliating for a genuine act of war will not lead Kim Jong Il to rule out _Cheonan_-scale attacks from his own menu in the future. I’m guessing that the delay, and the moderation, in the SK and US response has already emboldened NK. They are, I expect, more psychologically ready to go to war today than they were the day after _Cheonan_. Even so, I don’t think there’s any long-term solution that doesn’t involve the deployment of military force now. There’s very little to be done diplomatically or economically to further isolate or deprive NK. China won’t support NK in a real war, but, short of war, they also won’t cut off food aid and precipitate a refugee crisis on their border. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/36 "2010-05-22T12:48:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I don’t see the evidence for Kim being crazy. Egomaniacal and insecure, sure, but not unpredictable. It all makes sense in terms of him wanting to be thought of as a major leader of a major power. Without the military and the nukes and the implicit threat to use them and letting people think he’s crazy, his country would be just another impoverished third-world shithole. With them, he can make the industrialized world jump at his every word and action. He knows that, and so do the others in the NK government. > > So, in that light, would this move, if ordered by Pyongyang, make sense as just another chain-yank? Colin Powell didn’t think he was in the least crazy or insane. He said he was actually very smart and a shrewd negotiator. Robert Einhorn also said he was a serious and rational guy. What he is, is someone who will not be pushed around by the US. He is like Iran’s leader in that respect. Strange how you are thought mad when you dare to disagree with US foreign policy. 😃 Isn’t there doubts about the torpedo anyway being an old one from a while back scooped off the sea bed? Isn’t that why China now have it and are checking it. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/37 "2010-05-22T12:56:10Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Strange how you are thought mad when you dare to disagree with US foreign policy. 😃 Strange how when you do things like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il#Personality): [QUOTE=Wikipedia] In 1978, on Kim’s orders, South Korean film director Shin Sang-ok and his actress wife Choi Eun-hee were kidnapped in order to build a North Korean film industry.[110] In 2006 he was involved in the production of the Juche-based movie Diary of a Girl Student – depicting the life of a girl whose parents are scientists – with a KCNA news report stating that Kim “improved its script and guided its production” [/QUOTE] you are thought mad. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/38 "2010-05-22T12:57:33Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Here’s my offer; > > $500 million for the head of Kim Jong-il, delivered on a silver plate to the SK government. > > $2.5 billion for the entire Kim family and all nuclear weapons and weapon making equipment. > > $5 billion + $500 million per year in aid if they’ll do all of the above, destroy all statues and monuments to the Kim Dynasty, throw in all of their artillery pieces and missiles pointed at SK, sign a peace treaty and begin opening their society. What if the North Koreans want to keep their leader? Just kill all of them too? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/39 "2010-05-22T13:00:52Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What if the North Koreans want to keep their leader? > > Just kill all of them too? Nope, they’ll starve to death on their own under their beloved leader, without the need to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/40 "2010-05-22T13:19:32Z")
No aid? I suppose that would include no food aid. How is that supposed to keep the region stable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=3)