# N. Korea torpedoed the S. Korean ship: chest thumping or something more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103 "2010-05-20T05:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/61 "2010-05-24T11:46:11Z")
Before doing background reading on this incident, I had not fully appreciated how [vulnerable](http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may/27/world/fg-norkor27) Seoul is considered to be–within range of North Korean _artillery_. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/62 "2010-05-24T11:50:19Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Before doing background reading on this incident, I had not fully appreciated how vulnerable Seoul is considered to be–within range of North Korean _artillery_. ([2003 cite](http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may/27/world/fg-norkor27)) Yep. If the balloon ever does go up for real Seoul will be a smoking hole inside of a few hours. Which, incidentally, is why the war has never reignited. Even if the South Koreans win (which depends entirely upon whether or not China sits it out) they will have a Pyrrhic victory at best and they know it. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/63 "2010-05-24T11:59:16Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Very true. Also, the current party in power isn’t one that’s inclined to show NK any sort of sunshine. > > South Koreans love conspiracy theories involving the US, but no one seems to be spinning any concerning this particular incident, as far as I’m aware. Most of us are just somewhat baffled that NK was able to hit us with a torpedo without being detected or even discovered until now. 😃 So it’s not just the middle easterners who don’t believe everything that comes out of Washington. It is kinda hard to imagine that it was not detected, after all this is a region where you would have thought there would have been very sophisticated equipment to detect any missiles or torpedo’s heading it’s way. It just all sounds a bit ‘fishy’ to me. They’re only evidence are some NK markings in felt pen??? is that the so called conclusive evidence!! ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/64 "2010-05-24T13:50:17Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > 😃 > > It is kinda hard to imagine that it was not detected, after all this is a region where you would have thought there would have been very sophisticated equipment to detect any missiles or torpedo’s heading it’s way. > > It just all sounds a bit ‘fishy’ to me. > > They’re only evidence are some NK markings in felt pen??? Have you even read any articles on the subject? [BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10130909.stm) [QUOTE=BBC] But why has it been so difficult to prove? Stealth is the name of the game in submarine warfare. It is entirely plausible that a ship, on routine patrol in its own shallow waters, would not pick up any signs of an enemy sub, or even a torpedo fired from one, on its sonar system. (snip) The investigation report says that a number of small submarines, escorted by a support ship, left a North Korean naval base in the Yellow Sea a few days prior to the attack and returned a few days after it took place. (snip) The Cheonan sank close to the disputed sea boundary between North and South Korean territorial waters, along which the two navies have clashed a number of times in the past decade. [/QUOTE] North Korea had the proximity to the _Cheonan_ (since it was sunk close to the maritime boundary), North Korea had the motive (avenge past naval skirmishes or shore up the regime’s/heir’s standing within the inner circle), North Korea had observed submarine activity a few days before and a few days after the incident, and then, of course, the torpedo just happens to be of a type and contain markings that the North Koreans use. The only thing “fishy” is that you could look at these circumstances and suspect that the US was really all behind it - particularly since South Korea is a key ally and there is no evidence whatsoever that would even hint at US involvement. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/65 "2010-05-24T14:30:47Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Yep. > > If the balloon ever does go up for real Seoul will be a smoking hole inside of a few hours. Which, incidentally, is why the war has never reignited. Even if the South Koreans win (which depends entirely upon whether or not China sits it out) they will have a Pyrrhic victory at best and they know it. This is, as I see it, one of the _very_ few places I’d consider acceptable to nuke, all things considered. Note that it may not be the maximally efficient way to do things, but if I had this sort of problem, I’d strongly consider setting things up to nuke the NK wall of artillery. It’d probably be more effective to drop a few tens of B-52 loads of thermobaric weaponry, assuming it is dug in. Does anyone have any good analysis of the NK Line of Death? I’m kind of interested in it as an abstract sort of issue. The SKs are going to have to solve it one day. … kekekekeke is _not_ a viable answer! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/66 "2010-05-24T14:55:16Z")
Well, [here’](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.794016,126.639576&spn=0.002573,0.005659&t=h&z=18)s a site that is almost certainly a dug in artillery position. Zoom out a bit to see how close this is to Seoul, and check out the area around it for more of the same. It’s really going to be a matter of how quick and how precise the counter-battery fire is and how quickly the jets can reach the area. I figure the boys at this site are dead within 10 minutes, but they can still do a fuckload of damage in that time. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/67 "2010-05-24T15:34:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The Sunshine Policy has essentially been over since a South Korean woman tourist was shot in North Korea a while back. I’m not sure you could call it over when the ROK was still involved in Kaesong — that investment being, in reality, a pure subsidy to the North. But yes, fair enough, they were already moving away from the Policy reasonably quickly. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/68 "2010-05-24T15:40:11Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Maybe that torpedo wasn’t from Pyong Yang at all. > > Maybe it was from another country intent on destabilizing the region even more and a good excuse for Japanese Prez to overturn his descision to allow the base on Okinawa. > > Bit like the Saudi’s secretly paying Al Qaeda in Iraq. > > Whose torpedo was it really? I know you love a good conspiracy theory, especially when it makes the US look bad, but that’s really not likely in this case. Ignoring that this little upset is going to turn out badly for everyone involved, it was very in line with North Korean actions — most recently with a North Korean ship attacking a South Korean ship. (It lost the engagement.) Also, if your reference to the Saudis comes from that article you linked to the other day, you’ve badly, badly overstated what the article said, and if you’re trying to hijack the thread, please don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/69 "2010-05-24T15:46:14Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, [here’](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.794016,126.639576&spn=0.002573,0.005659&t=h&z=18)s a site that is almost certainly a dug in artillery position. Zoom out a bit to see how close this is to Seoul, and check out the area around it for more of the same. > > It’s really going to be a matter of how quick and how precise the counter-battery fire is and how quickly the jets can reach the area. I figure the boys at this site are dead within 10 minutes, but they can still do a fuckload of damage in that time. Of course, much depends on the quality of the troops manning these positions, and how well the artillery pieces have been maintained. I wouldn’t want to bet Seoul on these guns being manned by undertrained personnel who couldn’t be bothered to maintain their equipment - but such things do happen. _shrugs_ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/70 "2010-05-24T17:06:30Z")
[QUOTE=Marmite Lover] It just all sounds a bit ‘fishy’ to me. [/QUOTE] Oh…well, that’s different then. I mean, they should have probably called you in to tell them that, seeing as how you have seemingly not read much (to be generous) about this situation, yet are able to detect the flaws with your eagle eyed perceptions despite being ignorant of just about every aspect of this situation! Imagine if they briefed you in, what your contribution could be THEN! I mean…wow! Bam! Bing! KAPOW! BIFF! Dunna nanna nanna nanna…Marmit Lover! -XT ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/71 "2010-05-24T17:14:30Z")
Speaking of “fishy,” one hypothesis to explain the incident is that the N. Korean naval personnel, to supplement their meager incomes, [have taken to crab fishing in those disputed waters](http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/18/why_you_should_pay_your_military). ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/72 "2010-05-24T19:06:36Z")
Well, [it just keeps getting better](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10150379.stm). If you have a terrible definition of “better”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/73 "2010-05-24T19:12:56Z")
I wonder what exactly the South means by “proactive deterrence”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/74 "2010-05-25T03:15:22Z")
[U.S. planning military maneuvers near North Korea.](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sc-dc-korea-ship25-2-20100524,0,1272617.story) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/75 "2010-05-25T03:34:35Z")
It is kind of interesting. Kind of a reverse of the “Only Nixon can go to China” thing. As in, only a strong conservative anti-communist could seek reproachment with China and be taken seriously. In this case, only a “Socialist” (as he’s mistakenly called) and “Liberal” can take a hard line with the North Koreans and be taken seriously, and not have the nation up in arms about how wreckless and insane this is. If Bush was taking the same steps, heads would be exploding and people would be in the streets accusing him of actively seeking a third war. Personally, I think it is an interesting new tactic, one I fully endorse, of basically calling the NK bluff on their actions. They don’t want war any more than we do, but until now we’ve allowed them to run the game and make us constantly back down and mollify them, tolerating intolerable actions and still giving them rewards for fear of much much worse. Whether this is good or bad in the long run remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/76 "2010-05-25T03:44:24Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > 😃 > So it’s not just the middle easterners who don’t believe everything that comes out of Washington. Hell, half of _Americans_ don’t believe anything that comes out of Washington! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/77 "2010-05-25T04:18:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Hell, half of _Americans_ don’t believe anything that comes out of Washington! [Works both ways.](http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-majority-of-government-doesnt-trust-citizen,17459/) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/78 "2010-05-25T04:23:00Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > They don’t want war any more than we do Why would you think so? And who specifically are “they,” vis-a-vis the North Koreans? Surely the ordinary people have no say. I think a mistake to think of the North Koreans in terms of them being “communist” in the same sense as, say, Brezhnev’s USSR or Tito’s Yugoslavia. What you’re dealing with here is a totalitarian _Stalinist_ state, of the same ilk as the pre-WW2 Soviet Union where millions of peasants were deliberately starved to death as a matter of policy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/79 "2010-05-25T04:23:01Z")
[Here](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/113_66392.html) is something for you to read, **Marmite Lover**. It’s the translation of the South Korean President’s adddress to his country. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/80 "2010-05-25T09:18:23Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Have you even read any articles on the subject? > > [BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10130909.stm) > North Korea had the proximity to the _Cheonan_ (since it was sunk close to the maritime boundary), North Korea had the motive (avenge past naval skirmishes or shore up the regime’s/heir’s standing within the inner circle), North Korea had observed submarine activity a few days before and a few days after the incident, and then, of course, the torpedo just happens to be of a type and contain markings that the North Koreans use. The only thing “fishy” is that you could look at these circumstances and suspect that the US was really all behind it - particularly since South Korea is a key ally and there is no evidence whatsoever that would even hint at US involvement. like I said only a few markings as evidence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=5)