# N. Korea torpedoed the S. Korean ship: chest thumping or something more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103 "2010-05-20T05:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/81 "2010-05-25T09:42:52Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > like I said only a few markings as evidence? You obviously have no idea what the concept of [circumstantial evidence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence) is. Reasoning is the key to unlocking any mystery, not paranoia and kneejerk assumptions based on your own particular prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/82 "2010-05-25T10:23:39Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > like I said only a few markings as evidence? Do you think the torpedo should come with a tag that reads “If found, please return to Kim Jong-Il, 1 Kim Il-Sung Way, Pyeongyang?” I’d ask why the U.S. would fake an attack on South Korea - why it would want to provoke a potential war between the countries, as you’re suggesting - but I assume it has something to do with being eeeeevil. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/83 "2010-05-25T11:51:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you think the torpedo should come with a tag that reads “If found, please return to Kim Jong-Il, 1 Kim Il-Sung Way, Pyeongyang?” I’d ask why the U.S. would fake an attack on South Korea - why it would want to provoke a potential war between the countries, as you’re suggesting - but I assume it has something to do with being eeeeevil. 1. They want to keep their base in Okinawa. 2. The Chinese are not being ‘pushed around’ by US policy any more. What better than to kill two birds with one torpedo. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/84 "2010-05-25T12:05:09Z")
You realize Korea doesn’t control Okinawa? And that the US has about the same number of troops in Korea as we do in Okinawa? And that the Norks sunk a South Korean ship, not a Japanese one? You said that Middle Easterners don’t believe “everything” that comes out of Washington. Sometime I’d like you to list five issues for which you agree with “Washington.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/85 "2010-05-25T12:20:14Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > 1. They want to keep their base in Okinawa > > 2. The Chinese are not being ‘pushed around’ by US policy any more. I could waste my time telling you why it doesn’t make sense to sink a South Korean ship and blame North Korea to mess with policy in Japan and China, or I could ask you to come up with some evidence the meanie Americans did it. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/86 "2010-05-25T12:25:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You realize Korea doesn’t control Okinawa? And that the US has about the same number of troops in Korea as we do in Okinawa? And that the Norks sunk a South Korean ship, not a Japanese one? > > You said that Middle Easterners don’t believe “everything” that comes out of Washington. Sometime I’d like you to list five issues for which you agree with “Washington.” Yes I know all that. The poster asked for a reason why the US would fake an attack on SK by NK. I gave two. By blaming one of the US’s bogeymen NK, they could convince Japan that the base was needed. By blaming NK, the US would create instability even more and the Chinese would focus on home affairs, more than global. I’m not saying that the US did or would have anything to do with the torpedo . I just am saying that it is possible. Maybe that is what NK are thinking if indeed they did not do it. I have no idea if they did or did not. Just looking at it from another angle. I suppose it’s a bit like the Israeli’s trying to convince everyone about Iran. Suddenly a supposed Iranian cargo ship gets hijacked by the IDF FULL of Iranian weapons on it;s way to Hezbullah in the Med. Apart for the whole thing being piracy, who really believed that story? Why would the IDF release the entire crew supposedly after 4 hours:D That story went dead in hours as it was so incredible no one in their right mind would have believed it anyway. Kind of embarrassing to Israel really. It’s about planting ‘evidence’. Circumstantial evidence. About Washington. Did the CIA pay Jundullah or not? Who do you believe? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/87 "2010-05-25T12:31:06Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The poster asked for a reason why the US would fake an attack on SK by NK. Which was a stupid move on my part. You can make up anything you want in support of your view, and I shouldn’t give you a platform to do that. > [@](#): > > By blaming one of the US’s bogeymen NK, they could convince Japan that the base was needed. The base has been there for 60 years. I know it’s not popular with Japanese people, but it’s not going away. I’m pretty sure both countries would have to agree for anything to change. > [@](#): > > Maybe that is what NK are thinking if indeed they did not do it. I have no idea if they did or did not. Just looking at it from another angle. What you are calling “another angle,” I’m calling fiction. Does that work for you? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/88 "2010-05-25T12:34:22Z")
Iran executed Rigi’s brother yesterday. Rigi is next. So is there any reason for them to lie if they are going to be executed anyway. In the interviews they certainly don’t look like people who are tortured or under pressure to lie. These are people who chop heads off on U Tube. These are people proud of what they do. Do you really believe they would change their story or make this up when they know they are going to be executed anyway? I tend to believe Rigi. Which one is lying. CIA or Rigi? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/89 "2010-05-25T12:37:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Which was a stupid move on my part. You can make up anything you want in support of your view, and I shouldn’t give you a platform to do that. > The base has been there for 60 years. I know it’s not popular with Japanese people, but it’s not going away. I’m pretty sure both countries would have to agree for anything to change. > What you are calling “another angle,” I’m calling fiction. Does that work for you? What do you mean ‘not going away’. Who the hell are you to tell the Japanese people, the ones remember who suffered two American Atom bombs!! what they can and cannot have on their land!! They want Peace. You want war. Everyone is a bogeyman to Americans who stand up against your way of thinking.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/90 "2010-05-25T12:40:27Z")
??? CIA or Rigi? Washington or Iran? Which one? Hard choice eh:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/91 "2010-05-25T12:42:40Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What do you mean ‘not going away’. I mean I don’t think the base is going to be moved. I don’t think the Japanese government will ask, and I don’t think the U.S. government would agree if it were asked. Pretty clear, no? > [@](#): > > Who the hell are you to tell the Japanese people, the ones remember who suffered two American Atom bombs!! what they can and cannot have on their land!! I didn’t tell them a goddamn thing, and I’m getting sick and tired of your assumption that anyone who doesn’t agree everything you say is a jingoistic American warmonger. I posted nothing more than the obvious: if U.S. soldiers didn’t have to leave Okinawa after that young girl was raped in 1995, they’re not going to leave now. It’s doubtful the Japanese government would ask, because even if the base is unpopular with the people over there, the government probably appreciates the military support with North Korea and China nearby. Whether there is a base there or not is not my concern. If the U.S. withdrew there tomorrow, or from Germany or any other country, I would be fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/92 "2010-05-25T12:50:02Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > ??? > CIA or Rigi? > > Washington or Iran? > > Which one? > > Hard choice eh:rolleyes: Apart from the fact that you’re getting on my nerves, you need to make more of an effort to stay on topic. This thread is about North Korea, not Iran. You’re already discussing Iran, Washington, and issues related to Iran in other threads. If you want to talk about Iran or U.S. policy, post in a thread about Iran or U.S. poilcy. If you’re not interested in North Korea, you don’t need to be involved in this thread, and if you _are_ interested in what’s going on there, stick to that topic while you’re in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/93 "2010-05-25T12:52:22Z")
Probably appreciates??? Really. Didn’t look like it last time I watched them demonstrate. Governments come and go. Looks like Hatoyama will be gone soon just like Obama. What matters is what the people think. Unfortunately in the USA the people don’t have much of a choice though. Democrat or Republican. They are both the same. Warmongers. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/94 "2010-05-25T12:54:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Apart from the fact that you’re getting on my nerves, you need to make more of an effort to stay on topic. This thread is about North Korea, not Iran. You’re already discussing Iran, Washington, and issues related to Iran in other threads. If you want to talk about Iran or U.S. policy, post in a thread about Iran or U.S. poilcy. If you’re not interested in North Korea, you don’t need to be involved in this thread, and if you _are_ interested in what’s going on there, stick to that topic while you’re in this thread. you seem to forget I was asked whether I would believe Washington ON this thread! Getting on your nerves. Simple. Don’t reply. I was replying to the question . ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/95 "2010-05-25T12:56:40Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Probably appreciates??? > > Really. Didn’t look like it last time I watched them demonstrate. The Japanese government held a demonstration? > [@](#): > > What matters is what the people think. Remind me who elects the governments again? > [@](#): > > Unfortunately in the USA the people don’t have much of a choice though. Democrat or Republican. I agree that that’s unfortunate, but I can think of countries with worse systems. The governments actually do come and go in democratic systems. In other governments, the president sometimes stays and stays for decades, rigs the elections, and then tries to hand over power to his son. I wouldn’t want to live in a system like that. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/96 "2010-05-25T13:01:42Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Everyone is a bogeyman to Americans who stand up against your way of thinking.:rolleyes: Or, in your case, America is always the bogeyman behind everything to people of your way of thinking. You seem like the type of person who blamed the Haiti earthquake on some super secret U.S. military earthquake weapons test. Were all the commando raids and infiltrations by North Korean troops into South Korea over the years really Americans in disguise too? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/97 "2010-05-25T13:04:02Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > you seem to forget I was asked whether I would believe Washington ON this thread! You were not asked anything about Abdolmalek Rigi or Iran, or for that matter Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Al Qaeda. If you want to post about North Korea, go ahead. But you’re not going to be allowed to use this thread for even more posts about Middle Eastern policy and other issues. So stay on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/98 "2010-05-25T13:48:16Z")
I didn’t actually ask him a question, and for the record, I can’t figure out what the hell he was talking about, but it didn’t sound like an actual answer to the issue raised. > [@](#): > > What do you mean ‘not going away’. > > Who the hell are you to tell the Japanese people, the ones remember who suffered two American Atom bombs!! what they can and cannot have on their land!! > > They want Peace. > > You want war. You are demonstrating a serious lack of knowledge of that part of the world. Hatoyama was extremely popular right after his election. Then he made this half-baked promise that he would get the US to leave Okinawa, to which the US said, “Uh, buddy, we already made an agreement with your country in 2006 to remove half of our troops from Okinawa… now you’re going to break that agreement? WTF?” A good number of people on Okinawa cheered Hatoyama’s announcement. Most Japanese said, “WTF? Why are you trying to piss off our closest ally?” Pretty much exclusively because of the Okinawa issue, Hatoyama’s popularity went from 80% down to like 25% today. While Okinawans want more US troops to leave, the overwhelming sentiment in Japan is that it’s a stupid move to try to kick the US out of Japan, because the US-Japan relationship is good for Japan. In short, let’s just add this subject to the list of things that you know nothing about, but blather more anti-Americanism whether or not any facts are on your side. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/99 "2010-05-25T14:03:06Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I suspect that SK could take over the country but not without taking massive damage themselves since there’s probably a whole slew of missiles all ready and set to take out chunks of the South, and all they’d get in the end for their effort is a supply of poor, uneducated people to take care of. Worse, they’d have an entire population mentally and physically stunted by malnutrition – it’ll be a full generation before they can recover. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103/100 "2010-05-25T14:04:07Z")
Right. The real issue with the bases on Okinawa isn’t that there are bases on Japanese territory, but that so much of the American military presence is concentrated on Okinawa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/n-korea-torpedoed-the-s-korean-ship-chest-thumping-or-something-more/540103.md?page=6)