# Nader Supporters: What Are You Thinking?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 2, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206 "2004-06-02T04:47:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Cronos1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cronos1)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/1 "2004-06-02T04:47:18Z")
Most recent polls show Ralph Nader getting about 5% of votes in a presidential race between Bush, Kerry and Nader; and Bush getting enough votes to win the election. Without Nader in the race, polls show that Kerry would win the election.
I realize that opinions change, and things might be different come election day. But that isn’t my point. What I am wondering is what are those people thinking? What is their rationale? Without Nader, they’ve indicated they would vote for Kerry, so obviously Bush isn’t their second choice. But, yet they’re willing to materially contribute to his re-election.
I am not bashing Nader supporters. What I am hoping to discuss is what outcome do they expect by voting for Nader, since they can’t possibly be hoping he becomes president? Or are they?
Are they so disillusioned by the Democratic Party that they would rather see a Republican win in order to force some changes within the Democratic Party?
Are they so ambivalent toward the two major parties that they don’t care who wins? (Their voting for Kerry wouldn’t support this. In this case, you would expect them not to vote at all if Nader wasn’t running).
Do they think their candidate has a shot at winning? (Although he needs approximately a 6-time improvement in his numbers just to reach parity with the other two. Not a likely scenario).
Do they believe that over time, and many elections, a third party may become a viable alternative? If this is the case, what do they think about another four years of Bush?
Any other ideas?
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### Author:  [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/2 "2004-06-02T05:29:46Z")
It’s too early for Nader supporters to declare for a major candidate.
Why should they do that now when there are so many other undecided in both parties plus the actual independents out there?
As for third parties, don’t forget that Ross Perot made a good show for himself.
He might have been elected if he’d had a platform other than anti-Nafta and the old generic “I’m fed up and I won’t take it any more.”
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/3 "2004-06-02T06:29:20Z")
> [@According to Pliny](#):
>
> As for third parties, don’t forget that Ross Perot made a good show for himself.
> He might have been elected if he’d had a platform other than anti-Nafta and the old generic “I’m fed up and I won’t take it any more.”
If, if, if. Perot won something like 18% of the popular vote, but note that he didn’t win even 1 state. It’s all about the electoral college.
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### Author:  [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/4 "2004-06-02T06:39:25Z")
I’m in Texas. If I vote for Nader and Bush wins the election it’s not my fault 'cos Bush would have won Texas anyway. If I vote for Nader and Kerry wins, he’s not my fault either. So my political carping in 2005-2009 will be from an unassailable nonpartisian fortress of Nader!
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### Author:  [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/5 "2004-06-02T13:37:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> unassailable nonpartisian fortress of Nader!
I think I made one of these with my lego’s when I was a kid.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/6 "2004-06-02T13:56:56Z")
In the long run, their strategy may be to ensure that the Democrats don’t drift further to the right. To many of them, the Democrats are already _too far_ to the right. They are forcing the Dem candidate to weigh up the options of pursuing evermore centrist ground against _losing_ votes from further left. _Overall_, the effect of Nader voters is to input a leftist influence into US politics, which might _disappear_ if they voted Dem no matter what.
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### Author:  [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/7 "2004-06-02T14:00:40Z")
I still don’t get the logic of bashing those who voted for Nader in 2000 when fully half of the voting populace stayed home. Why not actually spend some time trying to figure out why the Democrats didn’t reach any of those 100 million people with their election-year message?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/8 "2004-06-02T14:09:23Z")
> [@Olentzero](#):
>
> Why not actually spend some time trying to figure out why the Democrats didn’t reach any of those 100 million people with their election-year message?
That’s an excellent point. “Non-voters: What are you thinking?”
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/9 "2004-06-02T14:21:57Z")
Yeah, but this strategy doesn’t hold any water at all.
Let’s say, for shits and grins, that in the last election we had Party A, center right, getting 49% of the vote, Party B, center left, getting 48%, and an independent Far Left Loony Party getting 2%. The balance of the vote went to various cranks and weirdos.
You’re in charge of election strategy for Party B. You really want to win. Do you try to go after some of the Far Left Loony Party voters? You might get some of them, but they’re a cranky bunch. And trying to appease them might chase some of your more moderate members over to Party A.
Going after some of that big Party A vote is the correct course. This is how Bill Clinton won - by running as a moderate Democrat.
(This example was for illustrative purposes only. Please don’t beat me over the head with shrill reminders over who won the popular vote in 2000.)
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/10 "2004-06-02T14:29:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Going after some of that big Party A vote is the correct course.
_For the candidate_, maybe. For the leftist who thinks that _both_ A and B are too far to the right, and that the only way to make party B _at least stop and think_ before shamelessly seeking A votes, voting for the Loony Party is a reasonable, logical and above all _democratic_ decision in order to exert a leftist influence on politics overall.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/11 "2004-06-02T14:32:51Z")
Mr. Moto is exactly correct. If I’m John Kerry I look to my left and see Nader and if I look to my right (WAY over to my right) I see Bush. I have to think 1) people that would vote for Nader are not going to be changed if I move left and 2) there will be a lot more votes to be won by moving right. The strategy should be to move right and let the Naderites fall where they may.
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/12 "2004-06-02T14:38:06Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#):
>
> _For the candidate_, maybe. For the leftist who thinks that _both_ A and B are too far to the right, and that the only way to make party B _at least stop and think_ before shamelessly seeking A votes, voting for the Loony Party is a reasonable, logical and above all _democratic_ decision in order to exert a leftist influence on politics overall.
Politics is an everyday affair, not a once-every-four-years affair. The far left and far right would far better serve their purposes by aligning with the main party closer to their ideals and working to change politics from within. The best hope we have for diversified politics is a change in the voting system. The worst hope we have is political idealism. The only way the dems will stop chasing the center is when the center stops responding, or the far left becomes bigger than the center. I don’t see that a case can be made that either will happen if only people voted for the independent/third parties, which is putting the cart before the horse.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/13 "2004-06-02T14:44:16Z")
**SentientMeat** people may vote as they see fit. I was only stating that a vote for Nader seems misguided. I don’t think it will influence the Democratic Party or John Kerry either way.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/14 "2004-06-02T14:45:41Z")
Again, I’m saying that they cause the Dem candidate to **weigh up** their future course. If there were _no_ influence on Dem policies from the left voters themselves, there would be nothing to stop Kerry sidling within a whisker of Bush on almost _all_ issues. As in the recent threads ‘What would it take…?’, there are possible positions which Kerry could take which are far right of his present position but not _quite_ as right as Bush. **More** voters would then either vote for Nader or stay at home.
And personally, I find the idea of ‘working from within’ somewhat idealistic myself.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/15 "2004-06-02T14:47:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **SentientMeat** people may vote as they see fit.
I agree in spades. I believe a vote for Nader is a fit use of a vote.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/16 "2004-06-02T14:49:59Z")
The two-party system works because of the “lesser of two evils” philosophy. There are things the Republicans advocate that I disagree with, but for the most part they are closer to the pragmatic world view that I myself hold.
People who vote for third-party candidates like Nadar do it out of stubbornness. They see themselves as “pioneers fighting for change”. It makes them feel good. They are unwilling to accept the idea that they are helping the Republicans. And as a Bush supporter, I say more power to them.
All it takes is a grasp of math and an open mind to look at the vote totals in a few states to see that Ralph Nadar cost Al Gore the White House in 2000.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/17 "2004-06-02T14:50:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The strategy should be to move right and let the Naderites fall where they may.
Fair enough, as long as one employing this strategy does not complain afterwards that they ‘lost your election’.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/18 "2004-06-02T14:53:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> All it takes is a grasp of math and an open mind to look at the vote totals in a few states to see that Ralph Nadar cost Al Gore the White House in 2000.
Agreed. The question is, who learned the lesson? The Nader voters, or the Democratic party who alienated them?
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/19 "2004-06-02T15:03:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#):
>
> Agreed. The question is, who learned the lesson? The Nader voters, or the Democratic party who alienated them?
I think “alienated” is a really strong word to use here, one that might tip the hand of third party voters. I feel very alienated by major political forces, it is true, but that should not stop me from weighing out the benefits and losses for different votes. Does voting for Nader in a close election stand any chance of _alienating_ democrats–the very folks that are supposed to come over to the left more? Or are only greens allowed to balk at politics?
I don’t blame Nader, I blame Gore–he didn’t run the swiftest campaign he could have, and I think that’s very unfortunate. But this is not to say that Nader voters couldn’t have swung the election back. They could have. Some Nader voters felt it was a safe vote because Gore “had” the election, riding on Clinton’s coattails. These voters will probably not be so quick to play to their ideals this election. That’s a shame, I agree, but in general every person should vote as if it was their vote that decided the election; seen in this light, each vote for Nader was a vote for Bush whenever a Nader voter marginally preferred Gore to Bush in 2000. Same thing with Perot voters, or Buchannan’s followers, or etc.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nader-supporters-what-are-you-thinking/248206/20 "2004-06-02T15:26:12Z")
See, here’s the thing, **SentientMeat**.
I’m a political conservative. That means, for as long as I’ve been politically aware, I’ve found far more to be unhappy about in American political life than I’ve found to be happy about.
I don’t let it drive me out of the process, though. I stay inside the Republican Party and use my (albeit small) influence within it to sway the party in a conservative direction. I’ve done this as a voter, a primary voter, a caucus participant, a donor, a county committee member and a delegate to the Virginia Republican Convention.
I think the Republican Party is stronger for conservatives staying in, and participating in the process.
Now, you can bail on the Democrats if you want to, and go play by yourself. But the party won’t miss you, especially with more Americans describing themselves as independents than either Republicans or Democrats anyway. Nader would have to accumulate a far greater vote total before he has any kind of impact, at which point history suggests his movement would be reabsorbed into the Democratic Party.
IMO, getting involved with your local Democratic party and working on local races would make a much bigger impact, and actually give you some chance at victory and local influence. Why aren’t you exploring this option?
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