NajaNivea/Michael Vick/boar Hunting/Pitbulls

[Cort]

@NajaNivea

That is not true–and in any case, where it is true of trophy hunting (or the rare sort of asshole that just goes shooting stuff for no particular reason and letting the corpses rot in the field), it has no bearing on a discussion of feral hog control.

I know. I actually acknowledged this in my post no. 39 when I said "Well, if you kill an animal for good reason, and happen to have fun doing it, that’s one thing. If, on the other hand, you don’t have a good reason and are just doing it for kicks, or because you think it makes you a badass or something, then you should give the animal a fair shake.

I suppose keeping angry hogs away from property where they could hurt someone is a good reason.

@NajaNivea

Your soybeans and lettuce kill plenty of animals (both directly in defense of the crops and indirectly through loss of habitat), they just don’t wind up on your plate.

I know, but someone who eats steak and vegetables every day is responsible for more animal suffering than someone who just eats vegetables. That so many animals die during harvest is a serious problem and more of our attention should be directed toward innnovations which may minimise it, but in and of itself their suffering isn’t an argument against veganism. It just shows that there’s no such thing as a consequence free diet.

@NajaNivea

It is possible to live a self-sustaining vegan life style, raising your own crops and accepting huge losses to nature, but I’d contend that anyone eating a commercial vegan diet is likely to be culpable in a lot more deaths than they realize.

I think I sort of agree with you on this. I know a few vegans who do seem to operate under the delusion that no animals die in the harvesting of our food. To be fair, however, those are only a minority of the vegans I know. I think most vegans are aware and choose a more restrictive diet in line with the principle of harm reduction.

[NajaNivea]

@CannyDan

Yep, 15 replies to each one of my posts is objectively justified refutation of points you say you agree with, sure, and makes you look totally reasonable.

Right, because every single post in that count was directed at you in refutation of your posts. :rolleyes:

Just for point of information, what is this ATMB thread you keep bringing up?

:smack: Sorry, that mistake came from Bricker and LHOD’s exchange, where he cites “that ATMB thread” as further example of my lunatic-fringe over zealotry. The thread was actually in “Comments on Cecil’s Columns”.

[NajaNivea]

@Cort

…but in and of itself their suffering isn’t an argument against veganism. It just shows that there’s no such thing as a consequence free diet.

Yaar, agreed.

I know, but someone who eats steak and vegetables every day is responsible for more animal suffering than someone who just eats vegetables.

Agreed, from the industrial foods point of view, at least in part. If it takes a much larger volume of plant matter than animal protein to sustain you, how much harm is mitigated over the consumption of one ethically-raised chicken that goes to fill several bellies? Much harm to planet and people has been caused in the name of industrial corn and soybean production, and I don’t feel much better in supporting those industries than industrial meat. A vegan does much to support and foster plenty, particularly in the realm of abuse of illegal immigrant labor. Whether or not this is ethically any better or worse than harming feedlot cows is, I suppose, fodder for endless debate. I try to do little of either, but that means I do a lot more killing with my own hands and spend a lot of money buying “fair trade” grains and veggies. No life at the top of the food chain is consequence-free.
Again, this is no argument against veganism, exactly, just meant to illustrate that there is no consequence-free route, even outside the industrial food stream. I’m not trying to sound ethically superior, or anything.

I think most vegans are aware and choose a more restrictive diet in line with the principle of harm reduction.

I think I just hear more from the “holier than thou, consequence-free” variety. I’m sure there are a lot of other vegans out there. A tip of the hat to you on that count.

It’s tough. I’ve spent a lot of time considering where my food comes from and how best to do the least harm getting it. I was even a dietary vegan for a couple years. Now I’m just kinda rambling–I just don’t want you to think I’m the sort of hunter that gets all hateful and angry when the word “vegan” comes up. I do greatly appreciate anyone that gives any thought to the source of their food. :D;)

[Chopper9760]

@NajaNivea

Okay, so now you’ll happily admit that the layman doesn’t know shit about dog breed ID, and that when the layman talks about “pit bulls” he’s most often talking about a phenotype, rather than an actual, specific breed of dog, with an actual, specific breeding history?
And here we see that you’ve been paying no attention to the discussion, whatso-fucking-ever. Rottweilers, German Shepherd Dogs, Chows, Akitas, and so on in no way fall under the classification of “rarer larger mastiff breeds”. Presas and Cane Corsos? Sure, but they’re only a “growing” concern, instead of a well-established one.
Their numbers are of no consequence to a discussion about the mythology surrounding pit bulls. Saying that a pit bull is more dangerous than a Presa because there are more of them is a different argument than saying a pit bull is more dangerous than a Presa because they have locking beartrap jaws and are bred to fight to the death and also because they shoot bees out of their mouths when they bark.
I can’t even tell what the fuck you’re trying to argue here. “One” observes a cracked skull when “one” is skinning the damn hog, you moron.
Of course there’s something special about the bite strength of a dog breed to grip a 500lb wild goddamn boar. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you for days–you’re the one who’s insistent that there is not anything special about a dog’s bite strength, unless it’s a “pit bull”.
What? “To deflect from the pit bull to the English Bulldog”? What the fuck does that even mean? English Bulldogs are pets, and have been functionally useless animals for decades. I brought up the subject of big-game hunting dogs as germane to the argument because of ignorant assholes like yourself, who have never seen any working dog in action, insisting that “pit bulls” exhibit behavioral and physical traits that defy both hundreds of years of dog breeding history and* biology*. Your insistence is that pit dogs have physical and behavioral traits which make them more tenacious and give them greater bite strength than any other breed of dog on the planet. The fact is, there are many… many breeds of dog bred to “fight to the death” and bred to do so against animals that are much larger, much more physically powerful, and which have much better weapons at their disposal than other medium-sized dogs. Saying that a “pit bull” is more dangerous because it’s been bred to fight other medium sized dogs, and ignoring that a wide range of breeds and varieties have been bred to fight other, bigger animals with identical intentions as to outcome is… stupid. No other word for it.

Since you’ve made it clear above that you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about when it comes to a discussion of specifics in dog breeds, and cannot even identify a pit bull, indeed you’re lumping them in with “molosser offshoots”, I think it ought to be clear to anyone reading that you’re talking straight out of your ass when spewing these stupid urban legends forth.

“Struggle to clamp down on their head and crush”? Now you’re just making shit up to amuse yourself… right? Catch dogs catch and hold, that’s their job. The hunter catches up and sticks the hog in the heart with a knife. Fin. What a way to go, indeed. Sucks to be a hog, but until or unless there’s some better way to get rid of them, people will keep right on doing it around the world, wherever wild boar and feral hogs destroy croplands, private property, and protected wildlands, and wherever wild pork remains tasty.

In any case, are you really this stupid? The link you provided is to a trophy hunting game farm, where for a price some “guide” will walk you up to a trophy pig and you can plug it then go back to the lodge and pat yourself on the back about what a mighty hunter you are. They don’t want any idiot bringing their green dogs up to catch any hog they come across–they want to protect their trophies and guide you right up to the one you’ve paid to kill. Catch dogs catch hogs, they don’t wait to be pointed to the one you can afford, with medium-sized tusks that will look okay mounted on the wall. Stocked game farms have no connection to population control in feral and wild hogs.
Also, these “guides” are right to be wary of Weekend Warriors bringing their backyard American Bulldog up for their trophy hunt and dropping their pet in on a wild boar with no prior training or experience–such dogs die quickly, because wild fucking boars are very fucking dangerous.
Yes, it is cruel, it is dangerous, but it is absolutely necessary, and it is not simply for the amusement of a human–any farmer who’s just lost $30,000 worth of crops in a single night to a couple of rooting hogs would be happy to have words with you on that point. Boar hunting absolutely does require dogs, if you’re going to do it with any proficiency, and also if you’re going to survive the hunt yourself, squishy hominid that you are.
A fucking trophy, because the two have no connection, any more than you marrying a woman has to do with you fucking your sister.

I didn’t get through the whole thread and my lunch is over so I’ll have to finish later. Before I go though, I just wanted to say that you’re doing an admirable job of trying to reeducate some really stupid motherfuckers, I can’t believe the reams of unsubstantiated contradictory bullshit they are spewing. Keep up the good work and happy hunting!

[NajaNivea]

@Chopper9760

I didn’t get through the whole thread and my lunch is over so I’ll have to finish later. Before I go though, I just wanted to say that you’re doing an admirable job of trying to reeducate some really stupid motherfuckers, I can’t believe the reams of unsubstantiated contradictory bullshit they are spewing. Keep up the good work and happy hunting!

Thanks! Unfortunately, it’s taking longer than I thought, at least in some cases. ;)

[curlcoat]

@NajaNivea

Yup, and therein lies much of our dog bite problem–most people don’t know how to “speak” dog, even a lot of people who have always kept dogs don’t really pay all that much attention to them, except as sort of living yard accessories or (on the opposite extreme) as extra-charming, rather hirsute children.

Yeah, one of the worst things for dogs is the “furbaby” craziness and the “purely positive” movement. Not interacting with a dog as a dog frequently leads to trouble of some sort.

simply wasn’t on hand to tell the dog (or the kid) how to conduct himself in a novel or stressful situation.

This is another thing that people have gotten stupid about in the last decade or so, probably as a part of the “furbaby” thing, or maybe because there just seems to be too many parents that cannot be bothered to pay attention to their children. Little children should never be left alone with even the most even tempered, bite inhibited dog - if nothing else, it isn’t fair to the dog!

I have a hard time understanding how this can possibly be so, with 4.7 million dog bites happening every year, and only 16 or so ending in a fatality, less than half of those being committed by allegedly “pit bull type” dogs. That makes 0.0001% (give or take).

Well, if it isn’t blown out of proportion and had a bunch of opinion added, it isn’t “news”, is it? :rolleyes:

I have a mixed reaction to this post. First, you’re both partly right. Any small game killing dog is apt to grab and shake, but this doesn’t just include terriers.

I think the original poster meant continuing to bite, chew and shake, not the quick snap shake and drop that most sighthounds do.

I think what he’s trying to say is that this website is a glorious example of media-fostered pit bull hysteria. They gleefully report the “pit bull carnage” story without the pesky “misidentification” details.

I’m confused by his referring to just the one story on that site - why is that one different?

[curlcoat]

@Lute Skywatcher

You don’t get how not mentioning that the dogs that attacked Pedro Rios have been reported as misidentified and maintaining them as pit bulls is different from attacks by dogs which have not been reported as misidentified?

Not that I can see on that site - am I supposed to know the Pedro Rios case, was it famous? Oh wait…hold on…

Now I see! That was the same case as the one I linked to! Sorry, by the time I saw your first post, I’d forgotten the name of the victim…:smack:

[SteveG1]

@curlcoat

Yeah, one of the worst things for dogs is the “furbaby” craziness …

I would never do that myself. I treat my dogs like adults. We smoke expensive cigars, we sip good brandy from snifters, and discuss Chaucer and Shakespeare and “all kinds of cultural shit”.
Added on edit: Tell me more about the Killer Boston Terriers. I am intrigued.

[jlzania]

Thanks for the offer, NajaNivea.Hopefully I won’t be contacting you this spring.
We’re under control-at least for the moment. This is the first year that the hogs ventured into our fields and I’m sure it was because of the drought. We move our chicken ‘tractors’ daily and the pigs were after the spilled grain. Nothing much else left to eat after two years of no rain.

Cort
Well, the animals are doing it to survive. Ultimately, we mostly only kill animals for fun.

Besides, animals don’t generally like to pick fights with massively superior opponents.

NajaNivea’s said everything I wanted to and more succinctly, Cort. I’d only add that you have (and I am not trying to be insulting) an extremely naive ‘Disney’ view of how things actually work in the food chain.
One of the worst predators we face are feral dogs-because they do kill just for shits and giggles. One almost wiped us out last year. It took out several hundreds of birds in one single night. Is it the dog’s ‘fault’? No but that didn’t stop me from tracking and shooting it either.

I think that we, as a culture, are very far removed from death. We’ve sanitized it or put it behind big walls. We don’t like to be reminded that even a loaf of organic wheat bread equals the death of snakes and voles and ground nesting birds and fawns and gophers-to name a few. And those are only mammals that are killed when a combine harvests a field. I see death almost daily here on the farm and I can’t attach a moral value to death as it plays in nature. It just is. I see my responsiblity as part of the food chain to ensure that the chickens in my care have as decent and comfortable a life as I can arrange and as painless a death as possible.