I’m curious: did anyone here as a child see someone’s nonsexual nudity and was traumatized by it? Does anyone here know someone whose childhood view of nonsexual nudity traumatized them?
It just sounds like voter impersonation fraud: something much talked about and worried over, but almost never happens.
It’s not forty feet to my next door neighbor’s yard, but I can certainly see a naked person in the yard that is forty feet away from mine . and the person on the next block, whose yard backs up to mine? It’s about 40 feet from their back door to mine, so if they walk out their back door they will certainly see me if I am standing naked in my yard. Averting your eyes from something you don’t want to see is fine , but it doesn’t prevent you from seeing it in the first place, not unless you make sure no one ever sits at your patio table facing in the direction where the nude neighbor might come out.
And I don’t think any actually is talking about traumatization.
I agree with you. I think there is a practical issue of having a negotiated societal framework that most of us can live with comfortably. Here in the US, some of the people who see nudity as traumatizing will make this a very big deal indeed, and we will wind up with what I see as “ordinary nudists” getting burdened with sex offender status, whereas people who want to be able to go naked even if they might reasonably be spotted doing so are not likely to be able to make such a big deal about that loss of freedom. The US is kind of like that, burdened with a lot of sexual repression and puritanical spirit that spills over into what should be nonsexual, such as hot tub attire.
In Iran, people can get arrested or publicly beaten for failing to cover their hair in accordance with the law. Though, if they die in custody for it, there is a public outcry.
The US and Iran draw their lines in different places. As a practical matter, we need to be able to deal with it.
Now, to take another example, I don’t like to see blood sports such as hunting and fishing (though fortunately I don’t hear much about coursing anymore). And I really don’t think anybody should practice vealing, it should be illegal. It doesn’t feel good enough for me to just not do those things myself; I don’t think anybody should. Some will say hunting is needed for population control, and I’d say rodent control in homes is needed, too, but I don’t think buying mice at a pet store and hitting them with a hammer should be legal. So in this case our societal standards are too loose for my taste.
Hoping the framework is close to our own tastes, and voting to try to make that the case, is part of coexisting.
There are other kinds of objections besides religious or moral ones. If I let my yard get overgrown with weeds, or filled it up with old cars and other junk, I suspect my neighbors would object, though not on specifically religious or moral grounds.
I’ve often heard the claim that exposing a child to this, that, or the other will traumatize them, whether that be homosexuality, nudism, drag queens, or mustard gas. (Okay, in the latter case, I can see the harm.)
I do agree with your point that no child is actually traumatized, but, that is often the go to when people start wanting to control the actions of others, to force them to “conform to the social contract” as they define it.
“What about the children???” This is emphasized in this thread by talking about how daycares or elementary schools may be exposed to someone in the nude.
I just don’t understand what harm is caused by briefly seeing someone’s nether regions.
I can understand the harm that could come from someone seeing you naked if you don’t want to be seen naked, but the other way around just doesn’t make any sense to me.
What if my neighbor is just really ugly? Can I insist that he wear a ski-mask when he’s in his backyard?
Then if it causes no harm, what’s the problem?
My city permits 6’ backyard fencing, and neighbors have gradually fenced in.
The problem is that there is a social contract , whether you or my neighbor agree with it or not. And while I am not at all saying you should be arrested or even ticketed for walking from your door to your hot-tub nude * it’s not the case that neighbors can always avoid seeing it unless they choose to, and the original letter writer ( who wrote to god knows how many columnists) very much seems to plan to do this nude walking specifically to offend the neighbors or at the very least enjoys the prospect of offending the neighbors.
* in fact, no one could be arrested or ticketed where I live for walking around shirtless Somehow, women don’t do it anyway. and actually there aren’t that many men walking on the street shirtless either. Beaches and parks are another story.
And the problem there is that there actually isn’t. I’ve never seen this contract, much less signed it, and it seems that everyone has their own idea as to what is in it. They never seem to want to follow the contract as others define it, but they always seem to want to enforce it as they do.
“Cause no harm and intend no offense”, those are the only stipulations of a social contract that I’d be willing to sign onto. What clauses and paragraphs do you feel need to be added?
I didn’t assume such a nefarious intent. My read was that she knew it may offend, but didn’t care. I don’t know where you read into it the motivation that she actively wants to offend.
Imagine you are a seven year old girl and a naked man you barely know sits down next to you at the bus stop. Okay? No one is making you see him naked, you can just look away, right?
I don’t think I’m making a huge leap here.
Are you saying that she would be traumatized by this?
Oh, it’s a long ass leap indeed. But I’m curious as to how far you want to go with the “Won’t anyone think of the children?!?!?!?!?!” thread.
And if I tell you I’m offended by your naked body in your backyard, will you do it again, now knowing I’ll be offended?
I choose to not create joinder with your contract. SainT of the clan CAD;
This “social contract” seems a lot like the unwritten rules of baseball.
If I tell you that your face is ugly and seeing it offends me, will you show it to me again, now knowing that I’ll be offended?
If I tell you that your same sex marriage offends me, will you continue to be married, now knowing that I’ll be offended?
If I tell you that your very existence offends me, will you continue to exist, now knowing that I find it offensive?
I can play this game all day.
Sometimes, the reason that you are offended is that you have chosen to be offended, and that’s all on you, all of it.
Maybe you don’t but I’m sure a lot of people see a difference between being passively seen in your supposedly private backyard and going on the streets telling little girls to say hello to Mr. Spanky.
No and I wouldn’t be traumatized by a naked male stranger sitting down next to me at the bus stop either. But that doesn’t mean that she or I wouldn’t be uncomfortable or frightened or experience any number of other emotional states that don’t involve the long-lasting effects that “traumatized” does,
Okay, and explain to me how your backyard is the same thing as a bus stop. Explain how being in your backyard is the same as approaching someone else and coming into their personal space.
Explain how this “Please, please, please, think of the children!!!” pearl clutching relates to the actualities of the OP in any way.
Okay, let’s cut to the chase. What part of “intend no offense” do you accept, and what part do you reject?
What if I reply, “I’m offended by your puritanical views of the human body and demanding that I conform to your expectations of behavior. And I’m especially offended by your voyeuristic intentions spying on me on my own property. Will you do it again, now knowing I’ll be offended?”
And you don’t have to - but saying you didn’t agree with it and won’t comply with it and don’t care if you offend people by doing so is very different from acting as though people are choosing to look at your naked self if they use their own yard.
And not that I think you would do this - but you don’t then get to complain about people violating the social contract in ways you don’t like. So these people who want to walk nude to the hot tub because it’s too much trouble to cover up to walk to the hot tub , who don’t care if they offend the neighbors had better be OK with the neighbors only doing what is legally required of them.
I think it’s pretty straightforward, and the only ones that would claim not to find it so are the ones who like to play “I’m not touching you!” games.