About “Briton”, though, how can you say that anyone is Celtic or not? There’s been so much population mixing since Roman times I’m not sure you can find a "pure “Celt”. Likewise, all the Anglo-Saxons may well have as much French (Norman), Danish/Norweigan, and Celtic Blood as they do Anglo-Saxon. ANdthats not even counting the more distant strains.
I’ve always taken Briton to mean “resident of Great Britain”. People waving dictionary definitions about are missing the point. If a word is used in a certain context by enough people (as Briton has been) it takes on that meaning.
No fireworks, but . . .
As a matter of law people from Northern Ireland do, as you say, have British citizenship. Strictly speaking they are “British citizens” as defined in the British Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1981, but this is a legal construct, not a cultural or national one. There are three classes of British national; British Citizens, British Dependent Territories Citizens and British Overseas Citizens, and all three classes contain people who are not considered to be British in a cultural sense by themselves or anyone else.
(By the same reasoning people from Northern Ireland are all subject of the British queen, but even less turns on this. Canadians, for example, are subjects of the same queen but nobdy suggests that they are “British” as a result.)
In a cultural sense, I suggest, people are “British” (or insert nationality of choice) if they consider themselves to be British, and are regarded as British by the generality of other people who consider themselves to be British. On that view of the matter some people from Northern Ireland are British and others are not. The biggest threat to the Britishness of people from Northern Ireland is the risk that British people from Great Britain might not regard them as British.
My comments were intended as light-hearted. I think the whole issue is subjective. It’s more to do with your own sense of belonging or whatever cultural buttons have been pressed as you grew up. I’m Scottish first and foremost, and I could present a strong argument for there never having been anything more than a pseudo-political entity called “Great Britain”. That, however, is another thread.
Aro, ssshhhhhhhhhhhh you’re not meant to tell anybody.
British - a geographic term, which means if you come from the British Isles (incorporating the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Orkneys, Man, Wight and many others);
or alternatively
British - which means you come from the island of Great Britain and its off-lying small islands.
I make no claims on which definition, if either, is right. But sadly many do, a small difference of opinion which has spilt a lot of blood over the years.
…in fact, it’s a pity that the big island’s called “Great Britain” - that’s only a geographical term, to distinguish it from ‘Little Britain’, i.e. Brittany in France. It’s like the Great Lakes in the U.S. - they’re big, that’s all.
It’s not as if a resident of Chicago would go to the waterfront and says ‘what a wonderful lake, it’s great’.
Or do they?
I think the derogatory name / term DOB has been used by certain people in certain circumstances. It’s an acronym, can you guess what for?
But I guess it can only be applied to about 56% (simplistically speaking) of the residents of NI.
(PS Ulster is NOT Northern Ireland, it is 3 counties bigger. But you probably knew that anyway.)
It is absolutely the case that to the vast majority of Scottish/Welsh/English people that people from NI and Eire are all collectively considered Irish. Similar to the way that all of us (UK and Eire) are considered English by everyone else until we say we’re not.
It’s amazing how pissy some people get about being called British though - I mean, I’d call myself Scottish first, but I’m not about to get huffy just cos you call me a brit. But yeah, that’s much more an Irish thing on the whole.
Welcome to the boards. Though the isles are generically “the British Isles”, I have found no source whatsoever that includes the inhabitants of any part of Ireland in the geographical sense of the word “British”. If you can find me a source, then I’ll concede.
People from the Republic of Ireland, on the whole, take exception to being called British because a) it’s incorrect, and b) they fought a war within living memory to become independent of Britain.
… and for the 26,746th time, “Éire” means “Ireland” not just “the Republic of Ireland”.
No they’re not
What are they, then?
As jimm said the reason why Irish people get huffy is that they are not British and we fought a war 80 odd years ago not to be. You being Scottish are British. You may not like it but you are British. I’m as British as a French man. The Republic isn’t in Britain it isn’t a part of Britain and its citizens are not British.
You would probably get huffy if you had to correct people all the time that you weren’t French.
As I posted earlier, it’s amazing how upset people can get if you either exclude OR include Ireland from the “British Isles”.
My personal take: a Mexican would be offended if you said he came from the Americas, but would be if you said he was American.
And it always amazes me how many people over the age of 80, and who fought for Ireland/England/Britain (delete as applicable), are able to post on message boards. I’ve never knowingly fought any-one, myself.
Sorry, should be “a Mexican would NOT be offended…”
I presume you meant “wouldn’t” in your first clause.
I said living memory, not our living memory - like people’s grandparents, parents, etc. The Rising and the War of Independence are still relatively fresh in people’s minds here. Kind of similar to why we wear poppies every November in the UK.
I’ve no problem with Ireland being part of the British Isles as it’s a geographical term.
Good point about poppies - remember & respect the fallen, but don’t hate the descendants of the people your ancestors were fighting.
For the vast, vast majority (and I speak as an Englishman who’s been here for more than 7 years), they don’t. But a lot of people do get justifiably pissed off when people call them Brits, coz they ain’t!
I have to say that I do have a problem. Extending the term “British” to cover Ireland in a geographical sense is just as inaccurate as it is in a political, social or cultural sense, and I don’t see why it should be considered acceptable in one context but not in another.
FWIW –
UK legislation defines the term “British Islands” (to mean the UK, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands) but does not define the term “British Isles”;
Irish legislation does not define either term;
At least one international treaty (the Hague Convention on Child Abduction) defines the term “British Isles” to mean the UK, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands; and
The only political body to span both the UK, Ireland, Man and the Channel Islands is the British Irish Council and (as its name suggests) it is at some pains to avoid using the term “British Isles”.