# Name for phenomenon where improvements are better, but the original is still the best **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456 "2011-07-18T15:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SirRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@SirRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirRay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/21 "2011-07-20T13:41:06Z")
> [@isaiahrobinson](#): > > That is based on individual opinions. If you look at more concrete data it can’t work: for instance if Car A’s top speed is slower than Car B, and Car B’s top speed is slower than Car C, then Car A cannot have the highest top speed of the three. Same goes for torque, acceleration, trunk size, whatever. In fact it even works for individual opinions as well: if you think the 1968 Camaro was the “best model” ever, you can’t also think that the 1977 model was an “improvement” on it. It would be a contradiction. > > The phenomenon the OP’s describing doesn’t exist. I realize that, but was trying to come up with at least a half-way compromise - 2 versions of the same ‘thing’ (in this case a particular vehicle model over it’s different model years) considered great but in different ways, defined by different characteristics. It was worth a shot. Of course, to marketers and advertisers, the phenomenon the OP’s describing is quite common - “We took the best Mac & Cheese Ever, and made it even better! - Now Brand Z Mac & Cheese Classic, still the BEST, and introducing Mac & Cheesier - even Better!”… but logic is not required for puffery. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/22 "2011-07-20T20:54:41Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > [Twin-blade razors offer a better shave than single-blade safety razors](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_razor). > However, [the best shave comes from single-blade safety razors](http://badgerandblade.com/). One of these statement has to be false. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/23 "2011-07-20T22:27:06Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > One of these statement has to be false. Alternate: the OP is describing “lateral progress.” Option B may appear superior to option A based on certain criteria, whereas Option A is superior based on other criteria. Neither option is entirely superior, but changes in context could lead to varying popular perceptions of what is better. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/24 "2011-07-20T22:50:28Z")
This may be the fodder for a separate thread, and come to think of it, I seem to have seen such threads here before. But the question seems to come down to What are some examples of changes that were purported to be improvements, but proved to be worse than the original? I’m guessing we can find lots of them, and I think the OP’s actual question is Is there a name for this? (I don’t think so). ---
**Author:** ![Mesquite-oh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@Mesquite-oh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mesquite-oh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/25 "2011-07-21T06:59:56Z")
I guess it is how you personally judge improvements, better, and best. To many people, the new efficient water saver toilets are an improvement, but I prefer the old super flush water waster ones. I read a consumer magazine a few years ago when I was searching for a new washer and the writer commented that although the new efficient clothes washers save water and have a lot of features, the washer with the fewest consumer complaints was the super cheap and simple Roper (I think). Apparently the high efficiency and high feature washers were expensive, more complicated and had a greater chance of having problems while the super simple Roper had a few knobs and a motor and had much fewer problems and complaints. The writer also mentioned how some brands of high end refrigerators (maybe Viking?) also had a great deal of complaints and less satisfaction compared to their more simple and lower priced competitors. Can’t find the cite, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/26 "2011-07-21T12:12:49Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Alternate: the OP is describing “lateral progress.” Option B may appear superior to option A based on certain criteria, whereas Option A is superior based on other criteria. Neither option is entirely superior, but changes in context could lead to varying popular perceptions of what is better. Fair enough. But that presents no dilemma or “phenomenon” at all. Almost everything is like that: good qualities offset by bad qualities. It was my understanding that the OP was imagining a sort of round robin scenario where Team A beats Team B, Team B beats Team C, but then Team C beats Team A. So how do you determine the “best” team? That presents a problem, but if you simply say that A is better than B, but B is the best team you have presented a contradiction. Maybe B is a better defensive team, but A is better offensively, but I didn’t see any such a categorization in the statements about razors. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/27 "2011-07-21T19:15:49Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I don’t think you read the second article you link to very carefully. It is not the removal of the markings that made roads safer. What the article says, in summary form is “Road engineers used to use lots of signs to compensate for bad road design. Today, some engineers are focusing on good road designs that do not need road markings.” That’s not exactly accurate. The issue is the different definition of “good vs bad road design”. He has redefined what makes a good road design to be one that interweaves pedestrian and cycle traffic with automobiles and forces drivers to look at other road users to determine what to do, rather than rely on signs, lane markers, and signal lights to define who should do what, and then have drivers ignore those at their own whim. Somehow I find it concerning where a case of “sidewaltz” is performed with automobiles - or between an automobile and a pedestrian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/28 "2011-07-21T19:54:06Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > My imagination must not be as good as yours. Can someone elaborate? > > I don’t know about elections, but how about competitive sports, where player A usually beats B, B usually beats C, and C usually beats A. Can you imagine that happening? Before the Rumble In The Jungle (but after Joe Frazier had beaten Muhammad Ali and lost to George Foreman) this example was used to illustrate the same point: Imagine shortish Boxer A always takes repeated hits to the head when advancing to land his powerful left hook – and thus beats Boxer B, who floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee (which is to say: gets nailed by one hard left hook for every four light jabs he lands while backpedaling away). It makes perfect sense for B to beat C (who punches _ **insanely** _ hard, but moves too slowly to hit a retreating hit-and-run fighter like B) – even though C beats A (who advances chin-first on C and thus gets _ **dropped** _ by insanely hard punches before getting in close enough to land his signature hook). ---
**Author:** ![Infoseeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e68b1a/32.png) [@Infoseeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infoseeker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/29 "2011-07-22T03:47:52Z")
The transition from analog phenomena devices to solid state follows your description. Such advancements made primarily for convenience. I know some people would call such shifts in technology as ‘side-grades’. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/30 "2011-07-22T04:07:38Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > What is this phenomenon called? Any other examples? **Diminishing returns** : > **[Diminishing returns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns)** > > Empirical methods > Prescriptive and policy > In economics, diminishing returns means the decrease in marginal (incremental) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is incrementally increased, holding all other factors of production equal (ceteris paribus). The law of diminishing returns (also known as the law of diminishing marginal productivity) states that in a productive process, if a factor of production continues to increase, while holding all other produ... > [@](#): > > For example, the use of fertilizer improves crop production on farms and in gardens; but at some point, adding more and more fertilizer improves the yield less and less, and excessive quantities can even reduce the yield. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456/31 "2011-07-22T05:10:25Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > What is this phenomenon called? It’s called “error”. Sometimes things are found or believed to be wrong. Is there anything more to what you are describing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-for-phenomenon-where-improvements-are-better-but-the-original-is-still-the-best/589456.md?page=1)