# Name usages: given or sur-? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 11, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698 "2019-12-11T05:29:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/1 "2019-12-11T05:29:00Z")
I happened to catch some reruns of one of the best series ever to run on US television (in which the well-known British comedian tricks everyone into thinking he is an American) and noticed that all the characters refer to and address each other with their surnames. It is an iota disconcerting to me. In my workplace, it has always been given names, I guess because we mostly like each other (and there may be some awkwardness or discomfort with using some of our surnames). I recall it being fairly common practice to use surnames in grade school days, but in my circles, it seems to have fallen off. What is your experience? Is it standard in the workplace? What about in social settings? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/2 "2019-12-11T05:46:33Z")
I’ve worked in five different U.S. companies, one of them a small, family-owned business, the other all Fortune 500-level places. At all of them, almost without fail, people addressed each other on a first-name basis. The exceptions: - At the first company where I worked, we had a Japanese subsidiary. All of the employees in that subsidiary with which I interacted were _always_ addressed as “Mr. [Surname].” That was out of deference to Japanese custom, in which use of a given name in such a setting would have been very unusual. - The CEO at one of the companies where I worked was a very formal sort of guy, and once he assumed the role (he was hired into the role, coming from another company, while I was working there), it quickly became evident that he strongly preferred being addressed by “Mr. [Surname].” In social settings, I know of a few people (my wife being one of them) who occasionally address their spouses as simply “Surname.” Most of them do so humorously, and not consistently. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/3 "2019-12-11T05:50:27Z")
I’ve worked in literally dozens of companies of all sizes, and we very rarely addressed each other with our surnames. The only exceptions are rare attempts at humor. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/4 "2019-12-11T05:56:35Z")
Just to clarify: a “given name” is someone’s first name? Sorry, grew up just hearing them called _first_ and _last_ names. Never quite clear when I hear sur- or the really confusing term “Christian name”. Why would one of your names not be Christian? And does it apply to Jewish names? Do other religions use the term? ~ ~ ~ But to take a stab at the question: everywhere I’ve worked, everyone’s always used first names. And have you worked somewhere they just use last names without a Mr. or Miss/Mrs./Ms.? I’m picturing: “Smith, this is Bronsky. Bronsky, Smith. Bronsky’s working with Jablonski and the other Bronsky… they’re not brothers, just an odd coincidence. So Bronsky, Jablonski and Bronsky report to Whipple and Wobble, as do Smythe, Smith, and you, Smith. But hopefully no Smythes nor Smiths will ever have to talk to Jablonski or either Bronsky.” It sounds like a BBC4 World War I sketch… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/5 "2019-12-11T06:13:03Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Just to clarify: a “given name” is someone’s first name? The name that your parents give you (as opposed to the one they drag along with them). ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/6 "2019-12-11T06:21:50Z")
I noticed teachers always call each other Mr/Mrs/Miss Lastname. In my presence, anyway. Not sure what they do in the uber seekrit teachers lounge. Maybe they have nicknames for each other.(:)) When I volunteered at school I was referred to a Miss Beck by everyone. Even the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/7 "2019-12-11T07:01:39Z")
Was it standard in Victorian days in England to address close acquaintances by their surnames? Or what that just a quirk of Watson and Holmes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/8 "2019-12-11T07:19:39Z")
Everyone was called by their last name when I was working. Nobody wanted to use first names where prisoners could overhear them. Even when people had to sign something, they generally just used their first initial and last name. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/9 "2019-12-11T07:45:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > one of the best series ever to run on US television (in which the well-known British comedian tricks everyone into thinking he is an American) Okay, fight my ignorance. Or maybe I’m too old and out of touch to know about it? What’s the name of the TV series? (And remember, you are wrong in any case. The funniest British comedy is and will always be… Monty Python) (and they usually did use Last names only for many of their characters. It was standard in 1960’s England to use last names only, for school children and for co-workers) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/10 "2019-12-11T09:08:55Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Okay, fight my ignorance. > Or maybe I’m too old and out of touch to know about it? > What’s the name of the TV series? > > (And remember, you are wrong in any case. The funniest British comedy is and will always be… Monty Python) > (and they usually did use Last names only for many of their characters. It was standard in 1960’s England to use last names only, for school children and for co-workers) Ever see _A Bit of Fry & Laurie_? There was a most excellent US series in which Hugh Laurie played an American, and legend has it, the producer/casting director had no idea when he auditioned that he was a Brit. I thought was far from being obscure in the US, but then, I have seen not a small dose of British material. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/11 "2019-12-11T11:21:56Z")
I’ve known English friends of my vintage (70s kids) to have gone to schools old-fashioned enough to have been still ‘surnaming’ the kids as late as the 80s. I think the custom died out at different rates in different places. Just from reading older novels from various parts of the Anglosphere I’d guess that surnames were the default at least up to the 50s, and then the practise rapidly fell out of fashion with the hippy generation. I’ve personally never worked anywhere where surnames were default. I’m also quite surprised to hear anyone say they find the word “surname” arcane. It was always “Christian name/surname” when I was a kid. (Folk etymology approaching…I’d guess that ‘Christian’ name has some relation to ‘Christened’ name) These days “Given name/Family name”. “First name/Last name” is a bit simplistic in a multicultural society ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/12 "2019-12-11T14:22:48Z")
The meaning of “first name” and “last name” can be unclear if the context includes names in languages where the surname comes first, like Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Hungarian, etc. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/13 "2019-12-11T15:18:41Z")
It’s always been first name. I used to teach secondary school English in the UK, and we were always known by surnames to the pupils (well, Miss/Mrs/Ms Whatever, and Mr Whatever, not just the surname), so we usually used those surnames in front of the pupils, but in the staffroom we used given names. Everywhere else it’s been given names only. The exceptions are when someone in their everyday life for one reason or another is known by their surname, or a derivation of it; that’s more of a working class male thing, I think, and probably due to there being loads of Pauls/Jacks/etc. > [@digs](#): > > Just to clarify: a “given name” is someone’s first name? > > Sorry, grew up just hearing them called _first_ and _last_ names. Never quite clear when I hear sur- or the really confusing term “Christian name”. Why would one of your names not be Christian? And does it apply to Jewish names? Do other religions use the term? > ~ ~ ~ > > But to take a stab at the question: everywhere I’ve worked, everyone’s always used first names. > > And have you worked somewhere they just use last names without a Mr. or Miss/Mrs./Ms.? I’m picturing: “Smith, this is Bronsky. Bronsky, Smith. Bronsky’s working with Jablonski and the other Bronsky… they’re not brothers, just an odd coincidence. So Bronsky, Jablonski and Bronsky report to Whipple and Wobble, as do Smythe, Smith, and you, Smith. But hopefully no Smythes nor Smiths will ever have to talk to Jablonski or either Bronsky.” > > It sounds like a BBC4 World War I sketch… Given name is more helpful because some people don’t use their first name as their given name. It’s particularly common among men from Muslim backgrounds (where they’re often Mohammed Something-or-other Surname and the Mohammed is not used as their given name) but it happens randomly in any community. I’ve known several people who went by one of their middle names, and always had. And yep, that would sound like a war sketch, though not necessarily historical. > [@Senegoid](#): > > Was it standard in Victorian days in England to address close acquaintances by their surnames? Or what that just a quirk of Watson and Holmes? Yes, that was common then among the upper classes, due to public school traditions. > [@eschereal](#): > > Ever see _A Bit of Fry & Laurie_? There was a most excellent US series in which Hugh Laurie played an American, and legend has it, the producer/casting director had no idea when he auditioned that he was a Brit. I thought was far from being obscure in the US, but then, I have seen not a small dose of British material. Yeah, but I also had no idea what show you meant. IME of being in hospital and knowing doctors, they use first names among each other but surnames with patients, because the patients are more likely to have seen Dr Whatever on their forms than Bob. Nurses get called by their first names usually. It’s the same in detective shows, I think. I’m fairly sure cops call each by their first name when not using the title plus surname and talking to people as part of their job. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/14 "2019-12-11T15:21:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Ever see _A Bit of Fry & Laurie_? There was a most excellent US series in which Hugh Laurie played an American, and legend has it, the producer/casting director had no idea when he auditioned that he was a Brit. I thought was far from being obscure in the US, but then, I have seen not a small dose of British material. So, I’m going to guess that you’re referring to _House_. (And, I’m not sure why you need to be coy about naming the show.) I can hypothesize two reasons why the characters in that show referred to each other by last names: 1. Most of the main characters were doctors, and I suspect that, in certain professional environments like that, it may still be customary to use last names. 2. As Senegoid notes, last names were what was commonly used in the Holmes stories (reflecting the norm in Victorian society). And, as _House_ was inspired, in part, by Holmes, the use of last names might be a nod to that. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/15 "2019-12-11T15:32:02Z")
I’m still unclear as to whether people are asking about addressing someone as Mrs. Smith or as just Smith. “Smith, can you hand me that piece of paper?” sounds impersonal, and I’ve never heard it outside of British radio or Monty Python. As I’ve always been in workplaces that used “given” names (ad agencies, then taught for 20+ years), “Mary, can you hand me that piece of paper?” sounds much more natural. And friendlier… and more apt to get someone to cheerfully hand you the piece of paper without resenting that you’re talking down to her or being unnecessarily standoffish/formal. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/16 "2019-12-11T15:36:00Z")
When working in a large US corporation: speaking about others in the company, it was always last name (without mr), even when the subject was a good friend of both speakers. The exception was the CEO, always referred to by his first name, probably to show (off) familiarity with him. When addressing colleagues, it was typically first-name, though some were last-name, without “mr” and not as sign of respect. The determination of which applied was even more opaque than how nicknames get assigned, but adoption was universal. Alternative form of address was the person’s 3 or 2 initials, typically indicating extended history between the speakers. This a leftover from an early email system, which used these initials to identify sender and recipient. This system was defunct long before most, possibly all of then-current employees joined, but the usage continues. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/17 "2019-12-11T15:42:22Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What about in social settings? In the circle of friends I grew up with, it was pretty common to refer to each other by our last names, especially since my circle had like five Davids in it. I don’t really find it odd at all if someone calls me by my last name, though it’s generally not common outside my neighborhood circle (though I have experienced it outside this circle – actually, now that I think about it, there are a good number of post-childhood friends that I am as likely to refer to by surname only as by first name.) ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/18 "2019-12-11T16:46:19Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > - At the first company where I worked, we had a Japanese subsidiary. All of the employees in that subsidiary with which I interacted were _always_ addressed as “Mr. [Surname].” That was out of deference to Japanese custom, in which use of a given name in such a setting would have been very unusual. For a while I worked for a subsidiary of a northern Italian company. When I was talking to Italian colleagues, if referring to a third person it was always the surname that was used, and without a title. So someone might say, “We need to go and ask Rossi”. It really did sound very abrupt - verging on rude - but I was assured it was just how someone would expect to be referred to. This was the rule for men - colleagues were mostly male - and I can’t remember how women were referred to. j ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/19 "2019-12-11T19:04:00Z")
The main exception in my workplace is when we had two Willie’s in the same work group. We usually referred to them by their last names so that it was obvious which one we were referring to. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698/20 "2019-12-11T21:12:21Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > So, I’m going to guess that you’re referring to _House_. (And, I’m not sure why you need to be coy about naming the show.) I hadn’t heard of this, but it was a show on the BBC > **[A Bit of Fry & Laurie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bit_of_Fry_%26_Laurie)** > > A Bit of Fry & Laurie is a British sketch comedy television series written by and starring former Cambridge Footlights members Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie, broadcast on both BBC1 and BBC2 between 1989 and 1995. It ran for four series with 26 episodes, including a 36-minute pilot episode in 1987. > As in The Two Ronnies, elaborate wordplay and innuendo were staples. It frequently broke the fourth wall; characters would revert to their real-life actors mid-sketch, or the camera would often pan of... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-usages-given-or-sur/844698.md?page=2)