# Name your favourite movie - but it has to pass the test! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880 "2012-02-15T02:14:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/81 "2012-02-15T18:42:58Z")
**Pan’s Labyrinth ( El laberinto del fauno)** ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/82 "2012-02-15T18:43:12Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Not high on my list of favorites, but a good movie - [_Ginger Snaps_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0210070/). The Fitzgerald sisters spend most of the film talking to each other, and it’s about whether one of them has turned into a werewolf. Does a female writer increase the likelihood of passing the test? I would think that a female writer would be more likely to write a script that passes. But female writers are the minority, with [this cite](http://womenandhollywood.com/2009/11/19/still-sucks-to-be-a-female-writer-in-hollywood/) I found saying in 2009 they had 25% of the writing jobs. But even if a script is written that passes, the resulting movie could fail if at some point a character is changed from female to male, or some conversations between women is taken out for whatever reason. I’d think it would also increase the numbers of movies that pass if there were more female directors. According to [this page](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/07/entertainment/la-et-women-directors7-2010mar07), the percentage of films that are directed by women has been between 7% and 9% for a while. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/83 "2012-02-15T21:09:30Z")
Would \*\*\*Glengarry Glen Ross \*\*\*have been any better with female characters (there are no female characters in the play; in the movie, there’s just the hostess at the Chinese restaurant)? I don’t see how. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/84 "2012-02-15T21:23:50Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > _Captain America: The First Avenger_ – Peggy Carter was the only main female character and she doesn’t talk to any other woman as far as I can remember. Mentioned on the website: apparently the closest Peggy gets to such a conversation is when she reassures her way past that gun-toting woman standing guard at the innocuous storefront that couldn’t possibly be the entrance to a secret government lab. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/85 "2012-02-15T22:03:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Would \*\*\*Glengarry Glen Ross \*\*\*have been any better with female characters (there are no female characters in the play; in the movie, there’s just the hostess at the Chinese restaurant)? I don’t see how. I don’t know if anyone is saying that all movies must pass the test. I’m certainly not. Not every movie needs to have female characters, and in some movies they would definitely be out of place. The issue isn’t really with any one specific movie, the issue is the relative lack of active female characters in movies overall compared to the number of active male characters in movies. ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/86 "2012-02-15T22:26:30Z")
Ahh, **The Double Life of Veronique** passes the test! Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/87 "2012-02-15T22:43:35Z")
_All About Eve_ was my first thought, but I see I got scooped in post #2. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/88 "2012-02-15T22:51:13Z")
It’s fresh on my mind since I just saw it: _The Help_. ---
**Author:** ![poker\_in\_the\_rear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dc4da7/32.png) [@poker\_in\_the\_rear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poker_in_the_rear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/89 "2012-02-15T23:28:34Z")
Boogie Nights ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/90 "2012-02-15T23:56:42Z")
_Leaving Normal_, with Meg Tilly (Jennifer’s more talented older sister) and Christine Lahti. They do a fair amount of talking about men, but also a LOT of talking about other things, as well. And it has the added bonus of actually being one of my favorite movies. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/91 "2012-02-16T01:11:49Z")
I am a woman and a feminist, and yet not one of the movies on my top 10 list passes the test. I see that someone mentioned _Persuasion_ upthread, but I couldn’t think of a scene in which they weren’t talking about men. Maybe I’ll watch it again to see if I can find one. The last movie I saw was _Albert Nobbs_ – does it count if two women are having a conversation that isn’t about a man if one of the women is disguised as a man during the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/92 "2012-02-16T01:18:46Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The last movie I saw was _Albert Nobbs_ – does it count if two women are having a conversation that isn’t about a man if one of the women is disguised as a man during the conversation? If it doesn’t, would _Tootsie_ somehow qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/93 "2012-02-16T01:23:51Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > **Die Hard** : Nope, because the conversations between Holly and her secretary are nearly all about the terrorists, who are men Just checked this list and Yay! **Die Hard** does pass because Holly and Ginny talk about Ginny going to the party while Holly finishes up her work. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/94 "2012-02-16T01:47:35Z")
\*\*Girl Interrupted On Golden Pond\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/95 "2012-02-16T02:14:19Z")
I just added 1947’s _The Ghost and Mrs. Muir_ to the list on the linked page - I’ll see if it passes muster. It should - in spite of being one of my favorite soppy romances with two gents wooing, the film opens with a scene between Lucy and her dead husband’s bullying sister and whiny, manipulative mother, and while dead hubby is mentioned, the scene is nothing to do with him. Another scene later with the same three women when they visit Lucy at Gull Cottage and attempt to convince her to return. I’m certain there is more than one scene with Lucy and Martha that has nothing to do with romance with anyone living or dead. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/96 "2012-02-16T02:14:23Z")
I don’t agree with \*\*Ellis \*\*about the larger issue, but I think he makes a reasonable point: pull any random person off the street, ask them to name their favorite movie, and there’s a REALLY good chance that the movie will be about war, politics, crime/law enforcement, or (maybe) sports, all of which are heavily male-dominated fields in real life. Now, one could make a reasonable case that these topics make up such a big chunk of Hollywood’s “serious” movies in part because of male bias, but still: this fact will tend to overstate (somewhat) the percentage of movies that fail the test. And, of course, you \*could \*make a movie about any of these topics with a high proportion of fleshed-out female characters, but doing so is kinda like, say, making a movie about '50s America in which almost no one is a smoker: totally plausible, but statistically unlikely. Anyway, as for my favorite films … the _Godfather_ movies fail hard, as does _Miller’s Crossing_. Maybe my favorite film that passes is _The Royal Tenenbaums_ (Gwyneth Paltrow and Angelica Houston have at least one conversation about Paltrow’s being depressed). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/97 "2012-02-16T02:30:13Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Would \*\*\*Glengarry Glen Ross \*\*\*have been any better with female characters (there are no female characters in the play; in the movie, there’s just the hostess at the Chinese restaurant)? I don’t see how. You’re really not getting this. If an individual movie fails the Bechdel test, that doesn’t mean the movie is bad, or needs to have women added to it to make it better. The point of the test is to illustrate a general bias in films as a media, not to take any individual film to task for not upholding feminist ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/98 "2012-02-16T02:33:42Z")
_Gosford Park_ certainly passes with flying colors. I think _Educating Rita_ does, but I wouldn’t swear to it. _Much Ado About Nothing_ might, but since Branagh cut the one major girl-talk scene, I wouldn’t swear to that one either. _Twelfth Night_ squeaks by on an amusing technicality, since there are several moments when Olivia _thinks_ she is having a conversation about or with a man, but she isn’t 🙂 Of my other favorite movies, I’m pretty sure _The Graduate_ does not pass and absolutely 100% sure _The Shawshank Redemption_ doesn’t. The linked site says _Shakespeare in Love_ is a pass, but I would never have figured this out on my own. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/99 "2012-02-16T04:18:54Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > And, of course, you \*could \*make a movie about any of these topics with a high proportion of fleshed-out female characters, but doing so is kinda like, say, making a movie about '50s America in which almost no one is a smoker: totally plausible, but statistically unlikely. The test doesn’t exactly say that women in film are rarely given substance. It says they rarely talk to each other about something other than men. They can still be given substance through other means. Nobody would say Marge Gunderson (Fargo) is without substance. Or Sarah Connor. Or Celine (Before Sunrise, Before Sunset). Nor would anyone say Angelina Jolie was not a major character in many of her roles (Salt, Tomb Raider, Hackers, The Tourist, Wanted…). Yet I think all of these films fail the test. Basically, it brings up a specific blind spot that movies have. Men often talk to other men about a variety of issues, but it is more rare for women to talk to other women about anything but men. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880/100 "2012-02-16T04:35:26Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > The test doesn’t exactly say that women in film are rarely given substance. It says they rarely talk to each other about something other than men. They can still be given substance through other means. > > Nobody would say Marge Gunderson (Fargo) is without substance. Or Sarah Connor. Or Celine (Before Sunrise, Before Sunset). Nor would anyone say Angelina Jolie was not a major character in many of her roles (Salt, Tomb Raider, Hackers, The Tourist, Wanted…). Yet I think all of these films fail the test. > > Basically, it brings up a specific blind spot that movies have. Men often talk to other men about a variety of issues, but it is more rare for women to talk to other women about anything but men. Exactly, Eternal Sunshine has two of what I would consider well developed female characters. Of the main characters, 4 are male, 2 are female, and in fact at least one of the males (Elijah Wood) was really more of a catalyst/force of nature, he didn’t really have too much characterization or development. The thing is, despite being very well developed, Clementine is at almost all moments miles away from Mary, most of the scenes with Clem taking place in Joel’s head. The memory erasing procedure is specifically targeting her, so it’s little surprise very few people show up in the memories for Clem and Mary to really interact. In fact, I wouldn’t even really call it a 4/2 m/f ratio, since at any time in a given scene it’s USUALLY one male and one female involved (except during the interview and the very beginning of the procedure), actually pretty balanced in terms of screen time of males vs females. In fact, due to lack of female characters, but almost equal screen time, they probably get more cumulative characterization than any of the males except Joel. The test is silly, and doesn’t really mean much. I’ll admit that since so MANY movies fail to pass it does shed some light on male centrism in hollywood etc, but I think there are plenty of corner cases where it doesn’t mean much either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-your-favourite-movie-but-it-has-to-pass-the-test/612880.md?page=6)