# Names into nicknames
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [February 16, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892 "2023-02-16T13:57:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/1 "2023-02-16T13:57:23Z")
Pre-emptive statement: I am aware that any name your parents called you, or any name you chose for yourself, is a “legitimate” name. I am also aware that many of our given names derive from other names, other cultures, and have been translated or transliterated into English. No need to educate me by informing me of either concept.
That said, I’ve recently become aware of certain given names that I assumed were traditional given names were actually derived from other names, mostly unfashionable “old-timey” names, as shortenings or nicknames. For example, I assumed my friend Stacey’s name was legit, but now I find that it originated as a nickname of “Anastasia.” My cousin Wendy’s name is a shortening of “Gwendolyn.” My friend Bart’s name (that I assumed was a shortening of “Barton” or some such) derives from “Bartholomew.” Are there other names (that appear as such on official documents like driver’s licenses, birth certificates, etc.) that were at some point nicknames of other, longer, now-out-of-fashion names?
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/2 "2023-02-16T14:27:02Z")
Are there any nicknames that are so unreal they would _refuse_ to put them onto official documents? Would they refuse Tania or Betty or Joe or Kitty? I suppose they might not go for Stinky, Bugs, or Skeeter, but those are more like pure ekenames rather than diminutives.
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### Author:  [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/3 "2023-02-16T14:33:57Z")
It’s my impression that birth certificates are inviolable–you can put anything you like on them (true?) but it takes a court order to make anything else your official given name.
This flat statement is probably subject to legal and other quibbling, but I think it’s essentially correct. You can’t just tell the clerk at the DMV “Evvabuddy jus’ calls me ‘Skeeter’” and have that go on your driver’s license.
I think “Lucy” was a nickname for “Lucinda” and I’m pretty sure that “Betty,” and “Beth” and “Betsy” and “Bess” started out as "Elizabeth.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/4 "2023-02-16T15:12:40Z")
It depends where, and when, you are. Since 9/11 in the US, I have found my “full legal name” is required—by which they seem to mean first name, middle initial, lastname, since my efforts to get people to use all three names failed utterly. When I was a child in California, I was always told that you could use any name you like in a legal context, providing that there was no intent to defraud (i.e. you can legally be Billy Jones or Stinker Smith so long as that’s not an effort to pretend you’re not William Jones).
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### Author:  [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/5 "2023-02-16T15:13:53Z")
Did Jimmy Carter appear on ballots as “Jimmy” or did he appear as “James Earl Carter”?
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/6 "2023-02-16T16:40:50Z")
> [@slicedalone](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure that “Betty,” and “Beth” and “Betsy” and “Bess” started out as "Elizabeth.
Among others. Gave rise to an old riddle:
[Elizabeth, Elspeth, Betsy, and Bess](https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/elizabeth-elspeth-betsy-and-bess),
They all went together to seek a bird’s nest;
They found a bird’s nest with five eggs in,
They all took one, and left four in.
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> Since 9/11 in the US, I have found my “full legal name” is required—by which they seem to mean first name, middle initial, lastname, since my efforts to get people to use all three names failed utterly. When I was a child in California, I was always told that you could use any name you like in a legal context, providing that there was no intent to defraud (i.e. you can legally be Billy Jones or Stinker Smith so long as that’s not an effort to pretend you’re not William Jones).
Yeah. This has caused a lot of complications over the years for those of us who at various points before 2001 became routinely known by some name that doesn’t exactly match what’s on their birth certificates. Which is actually quite a lot of people.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/7 "2023-02-16T16:51:19Z")
Yes. I only discovered at Christmas that my father’s birth certificate has no middle name—he was just using his Confirmation name as a middle name. Since his adult identity was established in the 60s, I guess he has just never had to produce a birth certificate post-9/11.
I, on the other hand, was motivated to change my name legally because I insist on being called by my (original) middle name, and the powers that be wouldn’t without that step.
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### Author:  [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/8 "2023-02-16T16:59:34Z")
My aunt was named Myrtle Patricia at birth. She was born at home, not in a hospital. The only paperwork was the certificate of live birth given by the midwife. By the age of 2 she was known simply as Pat. When she was required to get a Social Security number, she used the name Pat Myrtle and that was her legal name the rest of her life. When she passed, her daughter had Patricia M. put on her gravestone. She did not know her legal name was just Pat.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/9 "2023-02-16T17:02:12Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> I, on the other hand, was motivated to change my name legally because I insist on being called by my (original) middle name, and the powers that be wouldn’t without that step.
I use a version of the middle name on my birth certificate. I wish I’d legally changed it when I first started doing that, and the only people it mattered to was one bank, social security, tax people, and drivers’ license; but now, in addition, there’s another bank, several credit cards, multiple health providers, several assorted agencies, and probably somebody I’m forgetting about entirely; and I’m afraid some of them would recognize the change at a time when others wouldn’t and it would screw all sorts of things up royally; and my finances are too precarious to deal with possible repurcussions. In any case on any given day it’s easier to explain it to whoever I’m talking to than it would be to go through all that.
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/10 "2023-02-16T17:04:15Z")
Sometimes officialdom is responsible for nicknames.
Johnny is a nickname derived from J.R. Cash on the birth certificate by way of the US Air Force. His parents argued over what his name should be and settled on the initials. The Air Force wasn’t having any of that and entered him as John R. Cash. Sam Phillips at Sun Records wanted something with a hillbilly vibe, so named him Johnny Cash on the label. None of his friends or family called him Johnny.
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### Author:  [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/11 "2023-02-16T17:04:52Z")
> [@slicedalone](#):
>
> My cousin Wendy’s name is a shortening of “Gwendolyn.”
I thought it was from Peter Pan - ‘Fwendy Wendy’.
I always assumed my Uncle Bert’s name was Albert, but it turns out it was Bertram. The rest of his siblings included Betty (Elizabeth), Nancy (Anne) and Molly (Mary). Making random non-shortening nicknames of real names was obviously all the rage in the 1920s. I also had an aunty Doff (Dorothy).
My Dad is just boringly called Colin.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/12 "2023-02-16T17:06:14Z")
> [@slicedalone](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure that “Betty,” and “Beth” and “Betsy” and “Bess” started out as "Elizabeth.
I knew a Beth in highschool who’s full name was Bethany.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/13 "2023-02-16T17:10:05Z")
> [@slicedalone](#):
>
> It’s my impression that birth certificates are inviolable–you can put anything you like on them (true?)
This will depend on the jurisdiction. Probably true in the U.S., but some other countries (such as Iceland, Germany, and Japan) do have laws about what can (or can’t) be used for a child’s legal name.
As per this BBC article:
> [@](#):
>
> In the case of Iceland, it’s about meeting certain rules of grammar and gender, and saving the child from possible embarrassment. Sometimes, although not in every case, officials also insist that it must be possible to write the name in Icelandic.
>
> There is a list of 1,853 female names, and 1,712 male ones, and parents must pick from these lists or seek permission from a special committee.
>
> Similar concerns about child welfare are present in Germany, where a Turkish couple were not allowed to call their baby **Osama Bin Laden**.
>
> One couple named their baby **Berlin** after the city in which they met, prompting the registrar to mount an objection. He eventually relented after the family’s lawyer pointed out that the courts had allowed the name London.
>
> Gender confusion prevented a German boy being **Matti** , because the sex of the baby wouldn’t be obvious. And you won’t find any Germans named Merkel, Schroeder or Kohl, either, because surnames are banned as first names.
>
> The name **4Real** fell foul of authorities in New Zealand, because names cannot start with a number.
> **[Who, What, Why: Why do some countries regulate baby names?](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21229475)**
>
> A 15-year-old is suing the Icelandic state for the right to legally use the name given to her by her mother. Iceland is one of many countries that restricts baby names. Why?
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### Author:  [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/14 "2023-02-16T17:11:36Z")
> [@slicedalone](#):
>
> I think “Lucy” was a nickname for “Lucinda” and I’m pretty sure that “Betty,” and “Beth” and “Betsy” and “Bess” started out as "Elizabeth.
And let’s not forget ‘Lilibet’ - The Queen’s childhood nickname, and the name of Prince Harry (Henry)'s daughter.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/15 "2023-02-16T19:24:05Z")
> [@SanVito](#):
>
> > [@slicedalone](#):
> >
> > My cousin Wendy’s name is a shortening of “Gwendolyn.”
>
> I thought it was from Peter Pan - ‘Fwendy Wendy’.
> **[Was the name Wendy invented for the book "Peter Pan"?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343192/was-the-name-wendy-invented-for-the-book-peter-pan)**
>
> A STAFF REPORT FROM THE STRAIGHT DOPE SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/16 "2023-02-16T19:27:34Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> I knew a Beth in highschool who’s full name was Bethany.
Certainly, the same nickname can be short for more than one full name. “Ed” can be short for Edward, Edmund, Edwin, and probably others. “Al” can be short for Albert, Alfred, Allen, et al.
And perhaps more in the vein of what the OP was looking for, there are names that can be full, given names or can be nicknames derived from other names. Some Harrys are just Harry, others are derived from Harold. Some Larrys are just Larry, others are derived from Lawrence. Some Barrys are just Barry, others are really Barack.
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### Author:  [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/17 "2023-02-16T19:38:55Z")
> [@SanVito](#):
>
> > [@slicedalone](#):
> >
> > My cousin Wendy’s name is a shortening of “Gwendolyn.”
>
> I thought it was from Peter Pan - ‘Fwendy Wendy’.
There’s an exchange in _The Shining_ (the book) in which Halloran asks the woman who’d been introduced to him as “Winnifred,” “Are you a Winnie or a Freddie?” and she replies “I’m a Wendy.” Which makes sense to me.
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### Author:  [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/18 "2023-02-16T19:51:41Z")
I go by, and was called a diminutive of my middle name.
Thank god, my first name is not good.
My Daddy and his brothers were all initials. Except Uncle Jr., He was named after my grandfather.
Daddy never had a problem with his initial type name until he joined the Military. He just thought of a name and put it on the form.
His birth certificate still has his Initials as his name.
We put his ‘known’ by name on his headstone.
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### Author:  [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/19 "2023-02-16T19:59:17Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Among others. Gave rise to an old riddle:
>
> [Elizabeth, Elspeth, Betsy, and Bess](https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/elizabeth-elspeth-betsy-and-bess),
> They all went together to seek a bird’s nest;
> They found a bird’s nest with five eggs in,
> They all took one, and left four in.
That’s wonderful. I’ve never heard it before. There’s a bit in one of the Suchet Poirot mysteries where Captain Hastings and Miss Lemon get into a whole dialog about names with a lot of diminutives. It annoys Poirot at the time, but it plays into solving the mystery.
> [@SanVito](#):
>
> I thought it was from Peter Pan - ‘Fwendy Wendy’.
I’d always heard Barry made the name Wendy up for the book/play.
> [@Beckdawrek](#):
>
> Daddy never had a problem with his initial type name until he joined the Military. He just thought of a name and put it on the form.
One of my uncles had the spelling of his lastname misspelled when he signed up at 17. Since it was the first “official” record of his name, he just kept it, and his son kept it as well. I bet things like this drive genealogists crazy.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/names-into-nicknames/979892/20 "2023-02-16T20:09:03Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#):
>
> My Daddy and his brothers were all initials. Except Uncle Jr., He was named after my grandfather.
> Daddy never had a problem with his initial type name until he joined the Military. He just thought of a name and put it on the form.
> His birth certificate still has his Initials as his name.
The mathematician [R. H. Bing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._H._Bing) had only initials.
Supposedly,
> [@](#):
>
> It is told that once Bing was applying for a visa and was requested not to use initials. He explained that his name was really “R-only H-only Bing”, and ended up receiving a visa made out to “Ronly Honly Bing”.
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