Nancy Pelosi, you ignorant slut...

I’ll get back to this at the bottom.

Have we? Do you have any data demonstrating that Americans in 2002 or 2003 expected gas prices to be substantially higher in 2005 or 2006?

I dimly recall that one of the arguments for a certain war was that it would result in cheaper oil.

So you’re in favor of high gas/oil taxes? In theory, they’re the most effective means of getting people to conserve (other than just waiting for the price of oil to go up due to market or cartel forces, but a superpower that puts its economy in the hands of forces beyond its control won’t remain a superpower for long), but I remember what a big hullabaloo there was over a proposed ten-cent gas hike in the 1990s.

Americans really, really don’t want higher gas taxes. But (aside from the domestic car companies and the unions), few mind if the car companies are made to produce more fuel-efficient cars. So the politically feasible course of action that can make the most difference is to lean on the auto-makers, so that we as a nation can get the same amount of miles from fewer gallons.

I’m wondering if expecting the market to fix the problem runs into a market failure. If gas prices go way up, then the prices go up for fuel-efficient cars. The people who can best afford to trade their gas-guzzlers in for efficient cars are the ones who can most afford to keep driving their Hummers, while bitching about the prices of course. But people who are already just getting by, are even harder pressed by the increase in gas prices, and have no money to go out and buy more efficient cars. Meanwhile, based on their track record, Detroit at least won’t be sure that the demand for hybrids and whatnot isn’t just temporary until the proof is incontrovertible. But Uncle Sam can force them to build more high-efficiency cars than they’d otherwise do, making them more affordable.

How many price spikes do people have to go thru before it sinks in? Really, we should’ve learned our lesson 20 years ago. But this graph pretty clearly shows that gasoline prices have been steadily rising (with fluctuations) since 2002.

Can we have a cite for that? My memory is even dimmer. (Please don’t tell me you’re going pull out that 2002 quote for Lindsey in the Washington Times, though.)

No, I perfer not to supress or inflate the price artificially. Markets work best when pricing information reflects the actaul supply/demand situation.

You’d think that, and I’d agree. It’s what should have happened. But there’s no evidence that it did. And to paraphrase Rummy, you’ve got to work with the people you have, rather than the people you’d like to have.

OK, but what’s the magic point on that graph where everyone knows that this is a long-term price increase, rather than a short-term spike? For the vast majority of people who don’t pay more attention to the world than they absolutely have to, I’m thinking that the answer is, 2006. If then.

I think I probably tripped across it while reading Packer’s The Assassins’ Gate. I’ll look when I get home.

Most times, that makes perfect sense. But the oil market isn’t most markets, either in terms of its behavior or in terms of its strategic importance.

If the price of widgets goes up because more people want to buy widgets than there’s currently factory capacity for, then widget companies will build new factories, or new widget manufacturers will emerge, or widget alternatives will be developed, or people will decide they really don’t need widgets all that badly. The market corrects itself over time.

Then there’s petroleum. Petroleum’s cheap to ‘produce’, i.e. pump out of the ground, if you’re sitting on a lake of it. If not, then you’re SOL. If the people who are sitting on those lakes of petroleum can pump 86 million barrels a day, but demand is only 60 million bpd, there’s a lot of excess capacity. Ditto if demand jumps to 70 million bpd, or even 80, although now the margin’s tighter. Since supply still exceeds demand, not a whole lot happens to prices. Yet.

But when demand hits 86 million bpd, things go crazy. Maybe this country can pump an extra million bpd by this time next year, or maybe developing ANWR could add another million bpd to the supply by next decade, but if demand’s been increasing by 2-3 million bpd per year, it doesn’t matter. The only truth is that price will rise until demand reduces itself to match supply - and since, at any fixed price, demand will keep on rising, the price will keep on rising.

The U.S. is the great power in the world today, and I want it to continue to be so, even if the current government has fucked-up ideas about how to use our power. But I think that the dues to staying in the great-power club include dealing with stuff that might threaten your great-powerhood before it socks you in the nose.

Oil is $75 a barrel now, and it could go up quite a bit from here. $150, $200 a barrel? No reason why not. Any idea how that would affect our economy? I don’t either, but it ain’t gonna be pretty. Everything we make, everything we buy involves extensive transport networks. Leaving oneself open to that sort of disruption isn’t how a great power responds to that sort of threat; the proper way is to gradually introduce the illusion of the supply limits before those limits are real, so our economy can adapt gradually.

There’s other factors too, just in terms of smart v. stupid. That 20 million bpd, which is 7.3 billion barrels a year, cost us $365 billion more each year at $75 a barrel than they did at $25 a barrel. Most of that money, of course, is going overseas - to the Saudis, Iran, Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, wherever.

$365 billion a year, even in an economy as big as ours, is real money. And chances are that number will grow a lot faster than our economy will.

Now a set of phased-in oil tax increases to simulate that increase in the world price of oil before it actually got here would have kept that money at home, rather than seeing it go overseas. Given our little borrowing problem - the other big, ignored threat to our great-powerhood - that would have been a very smart thing to do.

Having prices go up, and getting to keep the difference: good.
Having prices go up, and having someone else get the difference: not so good.

On the whole, the free market is a very good thing. But as a nation, we have the ability to set goals, and to consider whether the untrammeled operation of the free market in a particular area is going to become an obstacle to achieving our goals. If we decide it doesn’t matter to us whether we continue to be a great power in any sense besides having a lot of nukes, then no goal = no problem. But if it does, then we do have a problem.

Right now, some pretty ephemeral stuff is propping us up economically, like the willingness of a whole bunch of central governments to loan us all the money we want to borrow, in our own currency. I’ve never lived in a world other than the one where the U.S. is the biggest and best economy around - and I very much like it that way. I want the game to continue under these rules as long as possible. So I’m eager to see us fix our problems before someone changes the rules. Oil is just one part of that, although it’s a very big part. But if we’re always waiting until after trouble hits to deal with the troubles, the costs of our non-anticipation will make it that much more expensive to solve the problems we already have.

Sorry about the manifesto. I really hadn’t intended on writing one today. :stuck_out_tongue:

But RTF, the 2 easiest solutions to this problem are to increase domestic production to ease short term shortages, reducing reliance on foreign oil, and to greatly increase the number of nuclear reactors nationwide long term and get the power generating industry off of non renewable resources. Do those two things and the whole problem goes away, and absent government interference, that’s exactly what would be happening. However, it’s not happening because a bunch of idiot environmentalists lobbied the government to pass laws so that it doesn’t happen, and while that might mean that a bunch of elk up north have unobstructed views, it also means that we’re stuck with $3/Gal gas prices. Your solution is more government interference and higher taxes? Why not get rid of the laws that are stopping these common sense, market driven reforms from occurring? Doesn’t that make more sense?

Weirddave, I love you. The 18% was what I was always challenging.

Now it’s your turn -

Dave pretends to be very knowledgeable:

Dave quotes me asking for a cite on 18% being average, and answers a different question, and concludes

Again I point out that Dave was talking about stuff he didn’t know, thus I infer that he knows what position he’s going to take before he knows the facts, and again Dave insists

I don’t know what facts and figures to bring, because I only challenged 18%. I wonder what innuendo I have posted. Snide comments? Well, I learn from the best. :slight_smile:

RTF, I’m curious as to why you havent responded to my last post.

Bup, got it, thx. You were (proudly too, I might add, which is somewhat strange to me) completely ignoring the subject of my post in favor of nitpicking an insignifigant deatail, and insisted on continuing on that tack even after I admitted I had no cite to give, but that something else was the thrust of my post. Got it. :wally

Exxon has another incredible quarter.

Now watch as WeirdDave argues that the averaging profits over the past several years proves there isn’t price-gouging now.

Define price gouging.

Exxon earned 10.4B on 99B in sales, about 10%. Intel just reported .9B on 6.8B in sales, about 13% (and that was one of the worst quarters it has had). Does Intel engage in price gouging?

Is it that hard to see past big numbers and look at the % profit?

I love watching John Mace and the other apologists contort themselves into new positions as they defend the indefensible.

British Petroleum Profits: $55,000 per Minute

I don’t love watching idiots like you constantly falling back on ad hominem attacks and never addressing the actual issue. Did you flunk 3rd grade for not being able to do fractions?

Moron. :rolleyes:

I think the Democrats should introduce a windfall profits tax now, if only to force Republicans to vote against it. Gas prices are going to be a hot issue in November, and Republicans defending huge industry profits would be a mighty cudgel with which to batter them with.

Can the minority party effectively bring proposed legislation to a point where it would get voted on, without the cooperation of the majority party, which, with all of the committee chairmanships, not to mention the Speaker’s seat, has control over everything that gets scheduled for a vote?

I suppose they can propose amendments to existing issues before the body, but is that historically a useful tool for obtaining high-profile exposure of an issue?

I’ve said many times that I thought that would be a smart political move from the Dems, if they can get a bill voted on. I think it would be bad economic policy, but it would be a great political move.

Why not a selective profit reduction? Something along the lines of, say, providing fuel to our military on a non-profit basis? Cost only. Assuming that the higher reaches of management are predominately Republican, and these are the most loudly patriotic citizens, they should rush to such a suggestion, seeing as they love their country more than anything. Certainly more than mere money. Why, they could even cut their salaries and perks and devote the proceeds to some worthy cause, like a scholarship program for Marxist M.B.A.'s (of which there is a woeful shortage)…

[QUOTE=John Mace Give it a rest-- you sound like an idiot.
[/QUOTE]

Ummm…John, she doesn’t just sound like an idiot.

She is an idiot.

Gotta hand it to old 'Humpy; give him a straight line and a three-month running start, and he’ll really zing ya.

I assume he needed that time to think up his witty reply, since he clearly didn’t spend it perfecting his coding.

apologises for inevitable coding/spelling mistake in this post

To be fair, this quarter XOM’s margin is up to 11%. In a world of geopolitical instability, I am a little surprised to see their margins widening.

Careful, there; he’s gonna kick your rhetorical ass, in November.

That was rhetorical, right?