# Napleon: Skilled Strategist, or just lucky? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967 "2008-03-11T15:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/21 "2008-04-03T14:49:38Z")
He was also good at logistics (“An army travels on its stomach” and all that). But that’s still not the same as being a good strategist. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/22 "2008-04-03T16:53:39Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Strategery? [/QUOTE] Its what Bugs Bunny used in his battles against Napoleon. Don’t knock it. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/23 "2008-04-03T17:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Actually, that sort of goes beyond strategy. What do we call that? [/QUOTE] _Grand_ strategy, is a usual term - [Grand strategy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_strategy) ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/24 "2008-04-03T18:51:35Z")
Napoleon’s longevity in power was likely, in part, due to the fact that the Army loved him. The Little Corporal was adored by the rank and file. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/25 "2008-04-03T23:43:28Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Napoleon developed a few elementary ideas like figuring out how many soldiers he had, organizing them into smaller equal-sized units with a designated chain of command, figuring out how many tons of supplies he’d need each day and making plans for having it delivered to his army, mapping out routes and organizing the route each unit would follow to a common destination, having specific units of scouts to gather intelligence about the surrounding countryside and location of enemy units, having an intelligence corps to gather all this information, having specific courier units to maintain communicate between his seperate units, giving each officer in his command instructions on what their role was in the overall plan, etc. Most of these ideas had occasionally been used by past commanders but Napoleon was the first commander to organize it all and make it general practice. [/QUOTE] Or he could have just read Sun Tzu. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/26 "2008-04-04T14:25:23Z")
[QUOTE=Can Handle the Truth] Or he could have just read Sun Tzu. [/QUOTE] Or Tacitus or several others. Notwithstanding Sun Tsu’s great reknown, Chinese commanders are not historically known as a group for their great skill in deploying armies. Oh, there were many good ones. There were just many, many more bad ones. The practice of too many dynasties of using wholly inexperienced bureacrats may have been an issue, though some of them proved quite capable. But more to the point, Sun Tzu really gave no _practical_ advice. His book is full of theory or abstract instructions but very short on how to actually do things, except in overly-specific concepts. Sun Tzu would rarely advocate splitting an army; armies of his day did not normally require it. By Napoleon’s time this was often not possible. And some of Sun Tzu’s advice takes as a given that the troops are half-trained, non-professional soldiers, of unreliable loyalty and courage. In order to be fair to the Master, the written version we have is not wholly complete and was partly a guide to an oral tradition, which we don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/27 "2008-04-04T15:24:10Z")
As I wrote, Napoleon didn’t invent any of these ideas. But he was the first to systematically apply them in an actual war. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/28 "2008-04-05T17:04:06Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] But more to the point, Sun Tzu really gave no _practical_ advice. His book is full of theory or abstract instructions but very short on how to actually do things, except in overly-specific concepts. [/QUOTE] I don’t agree. Sun Tzu gives in-depth commentary on every subject in **Little Nemo** ’s list. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/29 "2008-04-05T18:06:26Z")
Sun Tzu may have given some relatively detailed advice but it wasn’t stuff Napoleon could have used. Here’s Sun Tzu on logistics: > [@](#): > > In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li _(a distance of about 3000 miles)_, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of > silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men. That was probably a handy rule of thumb back in the sixth century BC but I’m guessing Napoleon wasn’t looking for information on how much it cost to keep chariots in the field. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/30 "2008-04-05T19:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Politics. Eisenhower and Montgomery and Zhukov made the strategic decisions. Roosevelt and Churchill and Stalin made the political decisions. [/QUOTE] If Napoleon had not been gifted for politics, he wouldn’t have become emperor. He arguably wouldn’t even have survived the revolution. Someone said “administration”, but actually Napoleon as also an excellent administrator. Most french structures (admnistration, law, education, etc…) have been set up by him and are still in place, even though they have evolved. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/31 "2008-04-05T19:31:43Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] If Napoleon had not been gifted for politics, he wouldn’t have become emperor. He arguably wouldn’t even have survived the revolution. Someone said “administration”, but actually Napoleon as also an excellent administrator. Most french structures (admnistration, law, education, etc…) have been set up by him and are still in place, even though they have evolved. [/QUOTE] An excellent point, I think. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/32 "2008-04-05T19:57:39Z")
I would add that Napoleon was also very well served. The french revolution produced a lot of exceptionnal characters, both by giving them a shot at proving themselves and in a sort of “survival of the fittest” way. This applied both to the military (the so-called “20 y.o. generals” like himself and the less well known Hoche, Marceau or Kleber, his marshals like Murat or Ney, and his rivals like Moreau that some believe to have been a better general than Napoleon) and to the administrators and political critters (like his infamous foreign minister Talleyrand, who managed to acquire and keep a high political position under all the french regimes, the republic, the empire, the monarchic restoration, and might have been both the best and most corrupt politician France ever had, the almost equally infamous minister of police Fouché, the head of his secret police Vidocq, etc…). Many of these people were granted an opportunity they would never have had in other circumstances (Bonaparte was a lowly lieutnant, Hoche a horse-keeper, Murat a cavalry sergeant, Vidocq a convicted felon, etc…) and they had to be savy enough to survive (not solely politically but even physically) throught the turmoils of the revolution and the empire. Napoleon most certainly benefited from this pool of highly talented individuals and knew how to put at his service those he could use and neutralize those who could chalenge his power. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/33 "2008-04-05T20:17:22Z")
I would finally say that someone who had to achieve supreme power and then keep it against all sort of ennemies (republicans, monarchists, power-grabbers like him) and all sort of plots, reorganize almost from scrach the institutions of a highly agitated, distraught and bankrupt country, deal with a large numbers of countries, political entities and people (from small german states through popular italian organizations to the Russian empire) and succesfully lead in battle armies much larger than Europe had ever known, all at the same time, had to be some sort of genius, in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/34 "2008-04-05T20:49:51Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Here’s Sun Tzu on logistics… That was probably a handy rule of thumb back in the sixth century BC but I’m guessing Napoleon wasn’t looking for information on how much it cost to keep chariots in the field. [/QUOTE] Yes, but it proves that he wasn’t the first person to think about such things, which is the point I was trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/35 "2008-04-05T21:07:19Z")
[QUOTE=Can Handle the Truth] Yes, but it proves that he wasn’t the first person to think about such things, which is the point I was trying to make. [/QUOTE] Neither was Sun Tzu. The first person who thought about it was probably Thragg, son of Gard, who first led a force of 300 cavemen across 25 miles to fight their enemies, the vicious Gnock tribe. No one said Napoleon was the first man to think about thse things. Or even the first man in Europe. Or even the first man in _France_. But he did develop principles of war and adapted practice to his time and place. Which is what Sun Tzu did. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/36 "2008-04-06T08:59:48Z")
OK, one more post about this and then I’ll shut up. The first translation of Sun Tzu into a western language was published in French in 1772 by J.J.M. Amiot, and reprinted in 1782. My edition of Sun Tzu states: [QUOTE=General Samuel B. Griffith] “Contemporary journals published favorable reviews and Amiot’s work was widely circulated… possibly this was read by Napoleon… the future emperor was an avid reader; it is unlikely that these unique essays would have escaped his attention.” “The work attracted immediate attention and received complimentary reviews in contemporary literary journals… one astonished critic went so far as to state that he had discovered in Sun Tzu ‘all the elements of that great art… it would be a great service to the Monarchy if this excellent treatise could be placed into the hands of those who aspire to command our armies.’” [/QUOTE] So it’s entirely possible that Napolean read Sun Tzu and thought, “This guy talks about things that we’ve never paid much attention to before. Maybe we should take logistics, intelligence, communication and organization more seriously.” ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/37 "2008-04-06T15:08:49Z")
I’ve read Sun Tzu in multiple translations. He doesn’t actually mention much about logistics, intelligence (well, he does have a section on outright spying), communication _or_ organization. Almost all of that is assumed and is in there but mostly in a background fashion. Sun Tzu wrote about how to outhink your enemy and outmanuever him, and considered fighting battles a waste (in which he was realistically wrong). THAT may have had an effect on 'Ole Nappy, as fighting over strategic poitns was a huge element of his strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/38 "2008-04-06T15:09:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but it proves that he wasn’t the first person to think about such things, which is the point I was trying to make. And who’s arguing with you? > [@](#): > > **Most of these ideas had occasionally been used by past commanders** but Napoleon was the first commander to organize it all and make it general practice. > [@](#): > > As I wrote, **Napoleon didn’t invent any of these ideas.** But he was the first to systematically apply them in an actual war. As I’ve been saying, Napoleon didn’t invent these ideas. But he actually put them into practice at a time when other generals didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967/39 "2008-04-06T16:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Neither was Sun Tzu. The first person who thought about it was probably Thragg, son of Gard, who first led a force of 300 cavemen across 25 miles to fight their enemies, the vicious Gnock tribe. No one said Napoleon was the first man to think about thse things. Or even the first man in Europe. Or even the first man in _France_. But he did develop principles of war and adapted practice to his time and place. Which is what Sun Tzu did. [/QUOTE] Look that was a good point but just lay off of us Gnockians O.K.? You never ever let an opportunity to slag us off go past do you? The past is the past so why dont you just let it drop. Its not as though you Thraggians are saints exactly,bloody hypocrites more like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/napleon-skilled-strategist-or-just-lucky/440967.md?page=1)