# NARAL...taking the low road. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431 "2005-08-10T12:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/81 "2005-08-11T14:07:55Z")
Dammit. When I first saw this thread title a few days ago, I thought, “Another partisan attack in the Pit, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. How droll. Allow me to pass.” Or, rather, I grunted and read something else. Then on the radio last night NPR did a story on NARAL’s ad (and for all y’all who claim NPR is ultra-left, the story made NARAL look like a bunch of assholes), and I knew that’s what this thread would be about. And I opened it today to read folks’ thoughts, knowing I’d be disagreeing with some of my fellow leftists in my condemnation of NARAL’s actions. I had no idea that the condemnation of NARAL would be almost unanimous here. Good on y’all! 'Cept for those of y’all not condemning them. The cure for the evils of dishonesty is not more dishonesty. The cure is honesty, eloquently communicated. NARAL is undermining their own integrity; they’re making it less likely that moderates will listen to their opinions in future cases. They’re also making it very unlikely I’ll give them any credibility in the future, and that’s a shame for them: until this incident, I’ve been a supporter of them. I’ll still support their underlying mission, but I won’t believe their statements anymore, not until they’ve undertaken a major effort to rebuild their credibility. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/82 "2005-08-11T14:15:51Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Bricker, are you saying that the abortion clinic bombers didn’t get public support from some well-known anti-abortion groups? And who knows what kind of support out of the public eye? Which of my words possibly could have led you to that inference? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/83 "2005-08-11T14:21:42Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If someone else has to cheat to beat me, I’ve already won. > > If I have to cheat to win, I’ve already lost. So, you would characterize the Republican Party’s activities over the last decade or so as “losing.” 'Cause last I checked, they held both houses of Congress and the White House and are busily engaged in packing the federal judiciary. What alternate reality are you living in? Who’s president? Does it rain doughnuts? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/84 "2005-08-11T14:22:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which of my words possibly could have led you to that inference? It’s **Evil Captor**. He could see someone write “cows eat grass” and infer “I think George Bush is a GOD and want a theocracy by 2008!”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/85 "2005-08-11T14:27:57Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Bricker, are you saying that the abortion clinic bombers didn’t get public support from some well-known anti-abortion groups? And who knows what kind of support out of the public eye? Er, can you point to what gives you that impression? I don’t follow. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/86 "2005-08-11T14:30:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which of my words possibly could have led you to that inference? The full post: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Squink > I accept NARAL’s tactics. They’re well within the accepted bounds of political discourse. I appreciate Beagle Dave’s"FUCK YOU for deliberating taking that phrase out of context," but the fact remains these anti-abortion groups are terrorist organizations, and they were at the time Robert’s worked for them. There’s nothing wrong with stating that publicly, or is there? > > Originally Posted by Bricker > > Uh huh. > > Swift Boat Veterans For Truth. Do you accept their tactics as well? You equate NARAL’s actions with the Swifties, implying an equivalence between the two groups. But there is no such equivalence. The Swifties flat-out lied about Kerry’s activities in Vietnam, easily proven lies but effective ones nonetheless. NARAL at least has a hook on which to hang its truth-stretching … the organizations Roberts supported in his brief DID support the abortion clinic bombers in some ways. I agree it is a stretch to go from there to say that Roberts himself supports them, but I would agree that it does raise some issues that should be addressed during the confirmation process … at LEAST make Roberts say in public that he doesn’t support them … so I feel NARAL has stretched the truth to make a valid point. Under those circumstances, the only way a reasonable person like yourself could possibly equate the Swifties with NARAL would be that you didn’t believe there was any link between the abortion clinic bombers and the groups Roberts supported in his brief. That’s why I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/87 "2005-08-11T14:32:44Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > It’s **Evil Captor**. He could see someone write “cows eat grass” and infer “I think George Bush is a GOD and want a theocracy by 2008!”. Oh, please, I have super powers, it’s true, but you’re making me blush. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/88 "2005-08-11T14:38:51Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, you would characterize the Republican Party’s activities over the last decade or so as “losing.” 'Cause last I checked, they held both houses of Congress and the White House and are busily engaged in packing the federal judiciary. What alternate reality are you living in? Who’s president? Does it rain doughnuts? Yes, I would characterize them as losing. They lost me as a supporter. They’ve lost other people I know. They’ve sold their integrity, and for what? For transient power in a transient world. If I wallow with the pigs, I am indistinguishable from them. You want to lie or cheat for your side? Then how will I tell you apart from your enemies? Doing the wrong thing for the “right reasons” still leaves you doing the wrong thing. There’s an old canard about relationships. If someone is cheating on their spouse _with_ you, then they will cheat _on_ you. If you’ll lie to gain power, you’ll lie to keep power, you’ll lie to anyone and everyone. Look at George W. Bush as an excellent example of this principle in action. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/89 "2005-08-11T14:40:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If I wallow with the pigs, I am indistinguishable from them. It’s like _Animal Farm_, only different. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/90 "2005-08-11T14:41:47Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I had no idea that the condemnation of NARAL would be almost unanimous here. You spoke too soon, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/91 "2005-08-11T14:47:27Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Cool! the last thing the party needs is more whiny dudes who’d rather support torturers than get their hands dirty in the realities of Bush era politics. Go back to the 90’s where you belong. Guess “the party” has a growing number of “whiny dudes then” [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/11/politics/11abort.final.html?ei=5065&en=c98fdd39e2d44a11&ex=1124424000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print) > [@](#): > > Several prominent abortion rights supporters as well as a neutral media watchdog group said the advertisement was misleading and unfair… {snip} > [@](#): > > Within the larger liberal coalition of which Naral is a part, there was considerable uneasiness about the advertisement, although leaders of other groups generally refused to speak on the record. One who did, Frances Kissling, the longtime president of Catholics for a Free Choice, said she was “deeply upset and offended” by the advertisement, which she called “far too intemperate and far too personal.” {snip} > [@](#): > > Walter Dellinger, a former acting solicitor general in the Clinton administration and longtime Naral supporter, sent a letter on Wednesday to the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and its ranking Democrat, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, respectively. Mr. Dellinger said he had disagreed with Mr. Roberts’s argument in the Bray case but considered it unfair to give “the impression that Roberts is somehow associated with clinic bombers.” He added that “it would be regrettable if the only refutation of these assertions about Roberts came from groups opposed to abortion rights.” Go get 'em **Squink** …better fire off some letters to this growing group of traitors to the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/92 "2005-08-11T15:01:42Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You spoke too soon, apparently. Almost. 🙂 Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/93 "2005-08-11T15:09:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Well, Shodan, in Watergate we caught/impeached the perps responsible. The system worked. It hasn’t been working wrt to the Bush administration, however. They just keep getting away with it, year after year. I agree with you that it would be good to put many members of the current Administration in jail, but failing that, the Dems have to protect themselves against a corrupt regime. Well, then it seems the only resort for you and your fellow fat heads is what I recommended - begin a transparently dishonest campaign against whoever Bush recommends, continue on into dirty tricks and outright fraud, and wind up marginalized, one way or other. [John Gielgud voice] Good luck in prison. [/JGV] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/94 "2005-08-11T15:12:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You spoke too soon, apparently. It’s _almost_ unanimous. There are just one or two very loud dissenters. And jsgoddess. Regarding post 88. Hear! Hear! If you have to lie to make your point, then is you point worth making? ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/95 "2005-08-11T15:21:41Z")
As someone who doesn’t really agree with many of the liberal’s positions on issues I just wanted to say how impressed I was that so many self described liberals are willing to speak up against things that their party, or groups associated with their party, does wrong. If only more conservatives were willing to do the same thing[sup]\*[/sup] we might have a better working relationship with each other. YMMV [sup]\*[/sup]I do realize that some conservatives do speak up and criticize their own party when they fuck up, but not nearly enough of us do it, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/96 "2005-08-11T15:36:20Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > It’s _almost_ unanimous. There are just one or two very loud dissenters. I know he said almost. It just seems to be creeping away from there since he posted. > [@](#): > > And jsgoddess. Regarding post 88. Hear! Hear! If you have to lie to make your point, then is you point worth making? I would say no, but what with the cascade of crullers, I might be a bit distracted. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/97 "2005-08-11T15:46:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes, I would characterize them as losing. They lost me as a supporter. They’ve lost other people I know. They’ve sold their integrity, and for what? For transient power in a transient world. Yes, in a century or so, when the Dems gain power back, they will be able to force King George the XXIII to sign some document allowing them to use voting machines with paper trails and whatnot. THAT’LL show 'em. Gonna be a looooong century, though, especially with fine and principled persons like yourself on the sidelines estabishing your moral goodness and such. [qoute]If I wallow with the pigs, I am indistinguishable from them. You want to lie or cheat for your side? Then how will I tell you apart from your enemies? Doing the wrong thing for the “right reasons” still leaves you doing the wrong thing. [/quote] Remind me never to invite you to any susauge-makin’ or law-makin’ events. I do not think you would care for them. > [@](#): > > There’s an old canard about relationships. If someone is cheating on their spouse _with_ you, then they will cheat _on_ you. If you’ll lie to gain power, you’ll lie to keep power, you’ll lie to anyone and everyone. Look at George W. Bush as an excellent example of this principle in action. Spouse cheating? Little late to drag Clinton into it, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/98 "2005-08-11T15:49:10Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > It’s _almost_ unanimous. There are just one or two very loud dissenters. > > And jsgoddess. Regarding post 88. Hear! Hear! If you have to lie to make your point, then is you point worth making? Hoorah for the Cheap Morality Brigade!!! You’ll make your point and then sit back, secure that you have made the world safe for Karl Rove. Look, I’m not saying what NARAL has done is nice or fair. Just that it does raise an important point about Roberts in a situation in which the Bush Admin. just might be able to get Roberts through unexamined. Surely you’re not one of those types who are against the Senate actually making inquiries of Supreme Court candidates? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/99 "2005-08-11T15:52:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, then it seems the only resort for you and your fellow fat heads is what I recommended - begin a transparently dishonest campaign against whoever Bush recommends, continue on into dirty tricks and outright fraud, and wind up marginalized, one way or other. Outright fraud? Have I asked you for your credit card number lately? What was that number again? [John Gielgud voice] Good luck in prison. [/JGV] [/QUOTE] Hey, I understand I’ll do great in prison … I have purty lips! Not as purty as Karl Roves, but still … ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/100 "2005-08-11T16:01:13Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Hoorah for the Cheap Morality Brigade!!! You’ll make your point and then sit back, secure that you have made the world safe for Karl Rove. While you simply want to create more Roves. You want both sides to be Rove. How is that not making the world safe for Karl Rove? I hate Rove because he is a vicious liar. You don’t mind vicious lying, so what’s your beef with the man? Envy? I want the world to be unsafe for the Republican Roves and the Democrat Roves and the SDMB Roves, while you want Roves you think are on your side. But the Karl Roves of the world are on the side of the Karl Roves. They don’t care about you and will screw you if it becomes expedient. _That_ is why he is despicable, not because he happens to have an ® after his name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431.md?page=6)