# NARAL...taking the low road. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431 "2005-08-10T12:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/101 "2005-08-11T16:01:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The Swifties flat-out lied about Kerry’s activities in Vietnam, easily proven lies but effective ones nonetheless. NARAL at least has a hook on which to hang its truth-stretching … the organizations Roberts supported in his brief DID support the abortion clinic bombers in some ways. Here’s the disconnect. The Swift Boat guys did indeed outright lie. So did NARAL. Roberts’ “support” of the organizations in question had nothing to do with their activities. An analogy: if PETA hired me because they had been defrauded for office renovations by a carpenter who accepted money but never did any owrk, you wouldn’t say I “supported” PETA’s goals by suing the carpenter to get their money back, would you? Roberts’ brief was addressing the limited quesiton of whether the abortion protestors violated a specific law. He said what the Supreme Court ultimately said: they did not. He was right. That doesn’t remotely translate into support ofr the organizations, no matter how much …er… “truth stretching” you wish to mention. If you believe that links for “support” may be stretched so thinly, I’d like you to explain your shocking support of NAMBLA… since you pay federal taxes to the VERY SAME government whose federal constitution protects NAMBLA’s most odious activities. It’s an outrage, you pervert, you. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/102 "2005-08-11T16:04:31Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Cool! the last thing the party needs is more whiny dudes who’d rather support torturers than get their hands dirty in the realities of Bush era politics. Go back to the 90’s where you belong. Good luck winning elections without any votes, asshole. If something’s right, it’s right. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. End of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/103 "2005-08-11T16:12:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Good luck winning elections without any votes, asshole. > > If something’s right, it’s right. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. > > End of discussion. Acutally, let me elaborate on my last. Most people who vote liberal/democrat vote on their principles. If you lie and cheat to try to swing moderates and dumbasses to your side, you are going to lose your mainstream democrat base, and be left with easily swingable middle-of-the-road types, morons, and extreme left-wingnuts. As a Democrat, I have to ask again why you’re trying to destroy the party. Are you a closet Bush supporter? Do you fellate Karl Rove in your head every night before you sleep? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/104 "2005-08-11T16:31:11Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Look, I’m not saying what NARAL has done is nice or fair. Just that it does raise an important point about Roberts in a situation in which the Bush Admin. just might be able to get Roberts through unexamined. And what point? The NARAL ad is demonstrably false, and raises an issue that doesn’t actually exist. Roberts never did what he was accused of in the ad, never acted in the way accused of in the ad, and had nothing to do with the bombing or bomber being showcased in the ad. If anything, this makes it easier for Roberts to get a pass on anything else, as it’ll be easier to dismiss as “NARAL-style disinformation”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/105 "2005-08-11T17:39:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here’s the disconnect. > > The Swift Boat guys did indeed outright lie. > > So did NARAL. Roberts’ “support” of the organizations in question had nothing to do with their activities. > > An analogy: if PETA hired me because they had been defrauded for office renovations by a carpenter who accepted money but never did any owrk, you wouldn’t say I “supported” PETA’s goals by suing the carpenter to get their money back, would you? > > Roberts’ brief was addressing the limited quesiton of whether the abortion protestors violated a specific law. He said what the Supreme Court ultimately said: they did not. He was right. That doesn’t remotely translate into support ofr the organizations, no matter how much …er… “truth stretching” you wish to mention. > > If you believe that links for “support” may be stretched so thinly, I’d like you to explain your shocking support of NAMBLA… since you pay federal taxes to the VERY SAME government whose federal constitution protects NAMBLA’s most odious activities. It’s an outrage, you pervert, you. Now don’t go all lawyer-slippery on me, Bricker. As I understand it, Roberts wasn’t hired by the abortion crew, he voluntarily worked on it as part of his firm’s pro bono case. You see the difference, I hope. Volunteer work argues a certain amount of personal commitment on Robert’s part. How much, I dunno. Perhaps we should ask him about that. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/106 "2005-08-11T17:41:33Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Acutally, let me elaborate on my last. > > Most people who vote liberal/democrat vote on their principles. > If you lie and cheat to try to swing moderates and dumbasses to your side, you are going to lose your mainstream democrat base And the mainstream democrat base will vote for … whom? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/107 "2005-08-11T17:46:57Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > And the mainstream democrat base will vote for … whom? Some might stay home, or only vote in their local elections that day. Some might vote for the Republican, whoever that turns out to be. I know quite a few Democrats who voted for Bush this last time around. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/108 "2005-08-11T17:49:22Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Now don’t go all lawyer-slippery on me, Bricker. As I understand it, Roberts wasn’t hired by the abortion crew, he voluntarily worked on it as part of his firm’s pro bono case. You see the difference, I hope. Volunteer work argues a certain amount of personal commitment on Robert’s part. How much, I dunno. Perhaps we should ask him about that. Get your facts straight. > [@](#): > > Roberts was serving as Deputy Solicitor General in the administration of George H.W. Bush. He was one of six Justice Department officials who submitted the brief on behalf of the United States government. He filed an amicus brief on behalf of his employer, the United States. It wasn’t pro-bono. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/109 "2005-08-11T18:34:33Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > And the mainstream democrat base will vote for … whom? It doesn’t take that many people peeling off and voting for a Nader before the Democrats are screwed. The only way your plan works is if Democrats are just as stupid as you think Republicans are. Well? Are they? Are Democrats gullible enough to fall for some Swift Boat Vets of their own? And would you really crow about that if they were? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/110 "2005-08-11T18:42:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Get your facts straight. In a thread with **Evil Captor** , **Squink** and NARAL not so much caring about details like “facts”…I find that statement amusing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/111 "2005-08-11T18:48:43Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > And what point? The NARAL ad is demonstrably false, and raises an issue that doesn’t actually exist. Roberts never did what he was accused of in the ad, never acted in the way accused of in the ad, and had nothing to do with the bombing or bomber being showcased in the ad. > > If anything, this makes it easier for Roberts to get a pass on anything else, as it’ll be easier to dismiss as “NARAL-style disinformation”. If you have information that Roberts actually bombed an abortion clinic, or even helped bomb one, please share. Certainly, no one, NARAL included, has made such a claim. They claim that his pro bono work means he approved or condoned such activities. That’s a bit of a stretch, but hardly a huge, stinkiing Swift Boat whopper. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/112 "2005-08-11T18:52:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It doesn’t take that many people peeling off and voting for a Nader before the Democrats are screwed. > > The only way your plan works is if Democrats are just as stupid as you think Republicans are. Well? Are they? Are Democrats gullible enough to fall for some Swift Boat Vets of their own? And would you really crow about that if they were? The ones who watch TV for their main news sources are just as stupid as the Pubbies. It’s not so much what party you belong to as how you inform yourself. And there are a lot of independent voters who are just as hazy as the TV idjits. I’ll never forget the TV interview I saw with a woman who had just voted for Bush at the polls, and clearly had no idea why she had done so. I’m afraid America has been pretty thoroughly dumbed down, jsgoddess. Wouldn’t crow about it, but I’d take the win. I am attracted to Dem policies because I think they work better for average people, not because they make me feel morally superior to others. That’s a formula for losing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/113 "2005-08-11T18:53:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Get your facts straight. > > He filed an amicus brief on behalf of his employer, the United States. It wasn’t pro-bono. I seem to recall some discussion of the fact that the work was strictly voluntary. Wasn’t something he had to do or was ordered to do. Had the opportunity, took it. Was this not the case? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/114 "2005-08-11T19:05:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Wouldn’t crow about it, but I’d take the win. I am attracted to Dem policies because I think they work better for average people, not because they make me feel morally superior to others. That’s a formula for losing. Yep. Lie to the dumb ones and manipulate them, for their own good! Again, the only thing bad you can say about Rove is that he’s not on your side. Everything else you’re defending. The means don’t matter, after all. All that matters is power. Winning. Funny how your “Dem policies” sound an awful lot like “Rep policies” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/115 "2005-08-11T19:06:07Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > In a thread with **Evil Captor** , **Squink** and NARAL not so much caring about details like “facts”…I find that statement amusing. 😉 It is isn’t it? NARAL employs a little artistic license in their ad, some rightwingers whine about how _unfair and misleading_ that is, and the great liberal truth brigades start barking like Pavlov’s dogs. With this sort of response, **Bricker** ’s probably right about the pubbies picking up a few more seats come 2006. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/116 "2005-08-11T19:08:26Z")
It’s this kinda shit which brings both parties into the sty. Wrong is wrong. I don’t give too hoots who did it first. There is no reason for NARAL to try to attach the name of an honorable man to terrorists. Good Lord. This sounds just like all of those jackasses who were saying that the anti-war people were “siding” with Al Qieda. I am so tired of each side simply digging in their heels based on the idiotic, kindergarten chant of “you did it first!” Oh and by the way, Bush is an Idiot, and Clinton got a blow-job. That ought to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/117 "2005-08-11T19:20:02Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I seem to recall some discussion of the fact that the work was strictly voluntary. Wasn’t something he had to do or was ordered to do. Had the opportunity, took it. Was this not the case? No. I think you’re confusing the discussion about Roberts’ work on _Romer_ with this case. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/118 "2005-08-11T19:24:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yep. Lie to the dumb ones and manipulate them, for their own good! > > Again, the only thing bad you can say about Rove is that he’s not on your side. Everything else you’re defending. The means don’t matter, after all. All that matters is power. Winning. > > Funny how your “Dem policies” sound an awful lot like “Rep policies” to me. You are mistaking policies for tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/119 "2005-08-11T19:26:43Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It is isn’t it? > NARAL employs a little artistic license in their ad, some rightwingers whine about how _unfair and misleading_ that is, and the great liberal truth brigades start barking like Pavlov’s dogs. With this sort of response, **Bricker** ’s probably right about the pubbies picking up a few more seats come 2006. Actually, Squink, I haven’t seen anybody on this thread defending the truth of NARAL’s assertions, which is what Pubbies typically do. We liberals, admitting that NARAL has stretched the truth fairly extensively, are just arguing that it’s acceptable to use the Pubbies’ own tactics against them. You see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431/120 "2005-08-11T19:37:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yep. Lie to the dumb ones and manipulate them, for their own good! Yeah, 10 years of honesty has worked SOOOOOO well for the Dems. And lying their asses off has worked so badly for the Pubbies. Wake up and smell the coffee … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naral-taking-the-low-road/316431.md?page=7)