# Narcissistic and borderline personality disorders **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164 "2009-07-07T04:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/21 "2009-07-07T16:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I call him on his shit, which no one else seems to do. I could understand him wanting me for purely self-serving reasons then OR now…but I can’t understand both It’s the same reason nobody plays Pong anymore. He gets a bigger thrill messing with you because you’re more of a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/22 "2009-07-07T16:32:39Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I could be wrong, but if he did change, I think he’d credit me for it in part (as he always does for the changes he has made) because I call him on his shit, which no one else seems to do. As my wife says (who heard it from her father, but had to learn it for herself): Never, ever marry potential. You have to assume that the person you see now is the person you’re going to get thirty years from now. You don’t have anything else to go on. Thinking anything else is merely wishful thinking. He seems to be very good at telling you what you want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/23 "2009-07-07T16:51:10Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > It’s the same reason nobody plays Pong anymore. He gets a bigger thrill messing with you because you’re more of a challenge. But then why was he still so infatuated with me before when I was much less of a challenge? I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I’ve said the same thing to him actually…but it doesn’t quite add up to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/24 "2009-07-07T17:02:11Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > But then why was he still so infatuated with me before when I was much less of a challenge? I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I’ve said the same thing to him actually…but it doesn’t quite add up to me. Why were you attracted to him when he treated you like trash and now when he treats you like slightly better trash? ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/25 "2009-07-07T17:07:12Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Well, unlike some other random admirer who finds him charming, you’ve proved that you’ll give him multiple second chances in exchange for mild improvements in his behavior. So have plenty of others, some much more than me. I didn’t talk to him for 2 1/2 years once and a year another time. I do give him way too many chances, but there are limits. > [@](#): > > It’s hard to tell whether he approaches the level of monstrosity displayed by some of the people in other Dopers’ posts. It is a bit worrisome that you don’t know for sure whether or not he’s actually getting treatment. Take him up on his offer to go with him. See a therapist yourself, if you can afford it. To build on what **Alma** wrote – if he is not too far gone and honestly wants to change, for himself or because he loves you, he may have to do it on his own. He was really quite a monster the first year. And you’re probably right that he should do it on his own. Of course he “needs” my support, but that’s a pretty transparent tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/26 "2009-07-07T17:16:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Why were you attracted to him when he treated you like trash and now when he treats you like slightly better trash? I’m attracted to the wrong kind of men. (And he treats me a lot better than he used to, but there was just so much room for improvement. Not that this is any justification, but he goes around singing my praises to everyone all the time. While there are some serious problems with his treatment of me, I wouldn’t say he treats me like trash. More like he holds me to ridiculous standards and then gets mad when I don’t live up to them.) But I’m not the one who is only out to use people for my own purposes. If HE is, he should want me for a more specific purpose, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/27 "2009-07-07T18:07:14Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > You deserve someone better. Well..we don’t know that. Really I am constantly amazed by women’s ability to rationalize a crappy relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/28 "2009-07-07T18:20:46Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > He was really quite a monster the first year. Would you like your son or daughter to grow up with him as a dad? When you yourself said he is at his worst when somebody can’t stand up to him? ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/29 "2009-07-07T18:37:28Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Would you like your son or daughter to grow up with him as a dad? When you yourself said he is at his worst when somebody can’t stand up to him? HELL no, I would not. But not because I think he’d mistreat a child in that way. My daughter is 9 and he’s known her since she was 3 and has never acted anything less than nice in her presence, even if it means leaving because he’s upset about some ridiculous thing and feels the need to go act out his feelings in some dramatic fashion as always. I don’t think he’d be a good dad because he’s too self-centered and irresponsible and would not set a good example with some of his views, but I’ve never known him to pick on children. He prides himself on his gentle ways toward children and animals. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/30 "2009-07-07T18:43:50Z")
My ex-husband is a narcissist. I didn’t realize this until I went to therapy when we were splitting up and his behaviors (which I could never understand) were explained through that lens. Then everything made sense. I totally understand your feeling that there’s _something_ there, and why you feel you can’t just walk away and never look back. Being with my ex- was like being on a roller coaster - the ups are thrilling, there is never a dull moment what with the walking on egg shells all the time. But, finally, I got too tired. My own mental health was suffering, and after a long time and some professional help I learned to value my own feelings as much as his. To this day, I find myself attracted in some ways to other narcissists. Perhaps it’s because there are members of my family (parents and a sister) who are extremely self-involved and difficult. But, with age comes the wisdom to realize what’s going on not let myself get hooked. Nobody said it was going to be easy, but the sooner you get away from this person the better. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/31 "2009-07-07T18:46:00Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Can a narcissist/borderline actually change? I dated a girl (mean, nasty bitch!) with a personality disorder and from what I read, the unfortunate answer is “No. They can not change.” If the person is actually genuinely willing to change (and narcissist don’t usually really want to) therapy to improve their behavior a little bit (although their motivations will ultimately be entirely self-serving), but ultimately nope, nuh-uh, sorry. IIRC from what I read, there’s a nature vs. nurture thing. “Nature” would be a mental illness that is more physiological/biochemical based which can be improved substantially with medication or other medical intervention (eg/ bipolar disorder). But things like narcissistic personality disorder is a “nurture” thing that has to do with things going awry during an important childhood developmental phase and a set of important “human connection bonds” were not formed correctly. That’s not to say it’s the parents’ fault and their screw up created a narcissist, it’s just that somewhere during a key developmental process something went snafu. There no medical cause/symptom that can be treated predictably. It’s that the narcissist simply can’t make emotional connections to other people the same way that you or I can. In the long term, the dude is going to make you unhappy, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/32 "2009-07-07T18:48:41Z")
Congratulations on actually getting him to admit that he was diagnosed with a personality disorder. When I suspected my ex-wife might have BPD, and mentioned it to her, she responded “Fuck you! Dr. X diagnosed me with that when I was in the psych ward at fifteen! It was the most evil place ever and she was pure evil! How could you say such a thing about me???!?!?” It would have been nice to have known a bit sooner, instead of having to figure out everything by myself. We’d already been married for three years. Anyway, the shitty thing about personality disorders is that they’re absolutely endemic to the psyche of the sufferer. It’s not like depression or OCD or even schizophrenia, where the disorder can be blamed on physiological or chemical imbalances and probably significantly mitigated with medication and therapy. Your boyfriend is absolutely defined by his disorder - at the core of his being, he _is_ the narcissistic, infuriating, abusive asshole that he appears to be on the outside. He can’t be “healed” any more than a fish can be a bicycle. There’s a very slight possibility that he may eventually might make some small improvement, at least in outward affect, but it’s going to take him absolutely and unflinchingly dedicating himself to modifying his behavior. Based on my own experience, it’s not a good wager to make. Would you take 1-to-99 odds that everything you love about your life would be taken away from you? That’s the kind of gamble you’re facing by staying with him. ---
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/33 "2009-07-07T18:57:21Z")
I have been around people who have been confirmed as narcissists and it is my opinion is that they really don’t have a conscience or empathy, except for how something makes **them** feel. ---
**Author:** ![Claire\_Beauchamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@Claire\_Beauchamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claire_Beauchamp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/34 "2009-07-07T19:23:49Z")
The NY Times had a group of pieces on BPD recently: [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/health/16brod.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/health/16brod.html) [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/understanding-borderline-personality-disorder](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/understanding-borderline-personality-disorder) [http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/expert-answers-on-borderline-personality-disorder](http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/expert-answers-on-borderline-personality-disorder) ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/35 "2009-07-07T19:55:44Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > So my point is, there really IS something about me that is special to him, but I don’t know what (don’t mean to sound all low self-esteem there…I know what people could like about me, just not him if he’s 100% all about himself). I don’t think he’ll ever leave me alone voluntarily, and he concurs. No, there’s really, really not anything special about you. Don’t even try to think about it logically, because that’s not how his brain works. Whatever he’s getting from you, he has decided it’s worth it. Narcissits don’t have an inner life like regular people do. That is, if you leave them alone in a silent room, it’ll drive them buggy because there’s no _there_ there. Perhaps what he gets from you is simply companionship. Perhaps you’re willing to talk about his favorite subject–him. Perhaps nobody will put up with him. But regardless of what it is, it’ll stop. Narcissists aren’t into anything for the long haul. They put people on pedestals (for whatever warped reason) and they knock them down from pedestals just as easily. You’re going to be left holding the pieces and wondering why you stopped “being special.” > [@](#): > > I could be wrong, but if he did change, I think he’d credit me for it in part (as he always does for the changes he has made) because I call him on his shit, which no one else seems to do. I could understand him wanting me for purely self-serving reasons then OR now…but I can’t understand both because there’s no way I’m serving the same role now as I did 6 years ago. He insists it’s just because he loves me so much, but no, I don’t think that’s it either. He’s not going to change. Ever. I know it’s not easy to come to terms with. I’ve been dealing with that for the past several years. My mother is _always_ going to be this way. Always. She’s never going to be a normal person. She’s never going to be not exhausting. She’s never going to grasp that she’s not the center of the universe. When my sister was burned severely on her arm and face and hospitalized, mom could only talk about how difficult it was for _her_. She never commented on how difficult/painful it was for my sister. And that’s how it’ll be forever. It sucks. But there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/36 "2009-07-07T19:59:07Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > HELL no, I would not. But not because I think he’d mistreat a child in that way. > > My daughter is 9 and he’s known her since she was 3 and has never acted anything less than nice in her presence, even if it means leaving because he’s upset about some ridiculous thing and feels the need to go act out his feelings in some dramatic fashion as always. Wait, you’ve got a young daughter? I’m going to jump on the ‘Leave. Now’ bandwagon. He doesn’t have to mistreat her directly, though I’m sure he does in small ways, he just has to mistreat you in front of her. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/37 "2009-07-07T20:32:24Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > … Perhaps you’re willing to talk about his favorite subject–him. **Blackberry** is certainly doing that now! ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/38 "2009-07-07T22:55:31Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I realize there are limitations to the usefulness of labeling someone with a personality disorder, but there is SOME use. The people who came up with the criteria for NPD and BPD didn’t know him either and still managed to describe him remarkably well. Yeah, the use is for insurance and research purposes - like I said it’s much easier to punch a number into a spreadsheet than a personality. But it’s not to give you more information about the person. It gives you less. And I sure hope you could make some predictions about somebody based on whether they can be described by five of nine sentences in a book, and you’d probably be right - except where you’re wrong. Which is pretty much what you’re saying about your bf - wow he fits so well (except where he doesn’t). Anyway I know it sounds like I’m being picky and bitchy - but you’re talking about making huge decisions based on what amounts to little more than the results of a Cosmo Quiz and what people you’ve never met are saying about other people you’ve never met who may or may not be like your bf in various ways. This is deep important stuff, and if you can’t look into your own heart and your own experiences and see all the complexities of your and his existence, or be strong enough to make a decision based on what you understand - then you’d probably be helped by thinking about those very profound issues for a while. Read some good literature - I dunno like Madame Bovary - if you want some insight. Read psychologists or the old psychoanalysts - they may have been wrong in so many ways, but they thought deeply into the nature of personality in ways the DSM was never meant to. The DSM is for something else altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/39 "2009-07-07T23:23:36Z")
> [@](#): > > So my point is, there really IS something about me that is special to him, but I don’t know what (don’t mean to sound all low self-esteem there…I know what people could like about me, just not him if he’s 100% all about himself). What’s special about you is, you’re the one trying to leave him. If you leave him, that makes him feel bad about himself, like he suspects he really is bad. If you stay, then he can tell himself that he’s not that bad after all. > [@](#): > > I don’t think he’ll ever leave me alone voluntarily, and he concurs. This is the scariest thing you’ve posted. You and your daughter are in genuine danger. As I’m typing this, there’s a man in Connecticut who’s holding his wife hostage. He says the police may push him until he hurts her - it’s all their fault. One of his demands is that the judge from their divorce come back and remarry him. I’m sure the DSMV would have something useful to say about this guy too. I wonder how many times his wife told herself, “he’s great except for …” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164/40 "2009-07-08T02:02:54Z")
In my experience, it gets worse with age. Starting at about mid-life crisis point (when they start to have to question their beliefs regarding age and attractiveness) and getting steadily worse as age and absentmindedness and the selfishness you get as you decide life is too short to put up with other people’s bullshit sets in. All of this is pretty normal stuff - pretty much everyone goes through it - but with someone starting with BPD its harder to fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorders/502164.md?page=3)