NASA Official says, "CO2 emissions must be controlled within 10 years."

The most important thing to do, however, is simply to put a real cost onto using the atmosphere as a free sewer for CO2 and other greenhouse gases. Then the market will develop the technologies to minimize our emissions of CO2 or to sequester CO2. I am not saying it will be easy, but this is the real way to do it if you believe in the economics of market theory (rather than just having a religious belief in “the free market”).

Of course, one can debate what that cost on emissions should be. There was an article in Science a year or so ago that discussed how one does that in the face of the uncertainties: To Hedge or Not Against an Uncertain Climate Future?. It was interesting because they tried to do this by making as few assumptions as possible regarding the costs of future climate change. They just assumed that there was some point beyond which we wouldn’t want to go because the costs rapidly become great…and that we would know more definitively what that point is in another 30 years and then asked the question of what we should be doing in the meantime in order to minimize the expected costs to avoiding going beyond that point.

Policies like the Kyoto Protocol and (in the U.S.) the Climate Stewardship Bill sponsered by McCain and Lieberman are attempts (albeit not perfect ones) to internalize such costs of emissions.

there’s no cute game matrix, sorry. but you can draw your own and fill in if you wish. I didn’t run out all the lines because the lines ran out.

Let us suppose that we will attempt to manage the uncertainties which trouble you by assigning what we take to be managable probability ranges and then apply the more likely of those ranges to the benefits, costs, and potential detriments to see if there isn’t an optimization algortithm we can apply so as to make a decision in the present more rational.

For the sake of argument, let’s pick the temp. increase at 2100 for our initial marker, from which we will extrapolate consequences retrograde so as to bring within more easiliy foreseeable range of time the proposed onset of the particular harms. so that the efficacy or contrary of any proposed amelioration can have at least some parameters for us to play with.

Further, let us pick as anthropogenic, and therefore potentially subject to amelioration via some societal effort, a component ranging from 100% to 0%.

It will be generally true, whatever the particulars of the amelioration might be, that the “low hanging fruit” will be cheapest, which is to say that most of our systems being so chaotic and inefficient, the first ten percent of effort will generally yield (arguendo) 30% of the benefit, with diminishing returns from there so that often to make an amelioration covering the last 10% of a problem it is likely to double the cost of the venture, that is to say, the cost of the last ten percent equals the cost of the first 90% improvement,…

Whatever the costs of any proposed amelioration, of course, they must be considered inlight of the possible detriments, reduced, if you wish, to present value to the extent possible.

Now, one of the problems is that in guessing how bad the shit will hit the fan if , say, the rise in 2100 is 10 degrees and we do nothing, is that if we err on the downside in our estimate we embrace the outlier risk if it is catastrophic.

what is mean is , look at Katrina and the Tsunami. (the Tsunami, of course, unrelated to global wartming, but I suppose it would have been worse if it started out with sea levels 10 feet higher, no?)

so the problem is, that things can get real exagertrated, if you het an 10,000 year event trifecta. There is, I think, no doubt that whatever vulnerabilities we have to a repeat of katrina somewhere else in the ntion (and I believe there are several candidates, incoudihg the sacramento delta (key word, delta, as in missippipppi delta) and in Bangle desh the Ganges delta.

Anyway, Katrina is a like 250 billion dollar beef. So if you say, well, the outlier temp rtise will give you a 30 foot sea level rise (covering among other things the southern part of florida frm tampa south…) and the middle number gives you 15 feet, we can say that the projected (and already borne) costs look fierce.

Then to the human contribution. Unless there is 0 human contribution, there is some component of the problem that is subject to amelioration, at some cost or other. If, arguendo, the rise were ALL anthropogenic, and we set out to get the easy 30% of amelioration (everybody drives hybrids…) we would expect that however bad the shit would get, we would have cut it back 30%, (big savings, ). Of course, this payoff drops if the human contriution is only 50%, but still, we get a 15% reduction for what is generally 5% of the cost of getting to 100% .

With that matrix, we can try to analyse the cost of being wrong. That is to say, we can be wrong by spending money we don’t need to, because the problem is not as bad as the lost resources; we can be wrong by spending money on the wrong thing, because the problem is as bad as we thought, but the spending we picked to do croweded out other spending we needed to do. or we can be wrong by not spending and the problem is real bad and some spending would have produced some amelioration.
If we are going to be wrong because we didn’t spend money that would have been efficacious, the detriment has the potential to be virtually infinite, and the benefit to us of not spending the money, is, just that, we don’t spend the money.

Such a benefit demands that we pause for a moment and think about things we ARE willing to spend money on (like 2 trillion on Iraq long term…)

So the imputed benefit to the gdp, lets call 3% to pick a middle number,. and see what kind of reasonable demands we will place on the amelioration matrix if that would be a hipshot cost. (which I concede only arguendo, because there’s lots of work to the contrary, but anyway, we move on.)

If we’re going to be wrong by not spending, we get the 3% growth, but we get some multiple of the number of Katrinas, so it’s not going to require a whole lot of anthropogenisis and efficacy to pencil out that this would be a bad way to be wrong.

Now, turning to being wrong by spending. (trying). This, of course, is the only way to get to the two bads–spending when it turned out to be unnecessary, or on the wrong thing.

If EVERYTHING we do is completely wasted, because we are terminally stupid, we have lost 3% gdp and we have as many katrinas as we would have without the spending.

If we use the 15% amelioration for a benchmark, and assume that we pick only half the right spending, we are still looking at 71/2 % amelioration of some pretty hairy shit–in other words, at some point of foregone gdp, namely the amount necessary to get to the low hanging fruit, any sort of prudent analysis dictates at least spending on SOMETHING…

Having decided to spend, if we are to be wrong because we spent, but on the wrong thing, it is important to notice that this unpleasant eventuality only can happen when the problems are bad, but we made matters worse on ourselves because we limited our overall spending and let something that we recognized as potential amelioration slide for budge reasons. This is a flexible screen that is susceptible of political modification–ie, we can decide to do both if we are scared shitless.

Anyway, the cost of being wrong this way is less catastrophic than the cost of being wrong by not spending, because since SOME of our early spending is going to work (even if ALL is not) and the consequences of 0 amelioration are so catastrophic, that it seems from a game point of view that we should not let the possiblity of being wrong by spending, but on the wrong thing, stop us from immediately going after the low fruit, and continuing to analyse vis - a vis the spending fo rsandbags, (dykes?) down the road.

to be unwilling to take a present gdp hit for some future benefit (via foregone costs of catastrophe) requires, it seems to me, a very sanguine view of the range of bad outcomes from unabated global warming, and an overly pessimistic view of the potential efficacy of social change, particularly the easier parts.

In order for that not to be a very bad way of being wrong (since your benefit limit is the foregone cost-3, 5, hell 10% gdp) the sum total catatrosphes circa 2100 would have to be pretty modest. Unrealistically so.

On June 1, 2007, only hybrids my operate on the public roads. If you do not own a hybrid, please bring your current vehicle to the location indicated below, and your government because it is run by intelligent, foresighted men, will exchange it of a *new hybrid of your choice. We will do this by spending money which we raise through taxes, because we understand that for this immediate outlay of cash, we will be able to look Oprah Winfrey in the eye, and we will also save Detroit and we will have such a spectacular cascade of savings from the immediate drop in foreign oil consumption (which, conincidentally, is how you cut global warming) that we will make the money back in like , ninety days, and plus, you get a car, you get a car, EVERYBODY GETS A CAR!!!

*american Made

<post snipped>

So you think we will make back that money back in 90 days? We would have to replace almost all the cars because there are not many hybrids on the road.

According to this site there are 132.4 million cars in the US. That number is from 1999. Assuming a price of 20,000 per car it would cost 2,648,000,000,000 to replace all the cars. That is not even including light trucks.

I did a little math and found that your plan would save about a 180 billiion a year(#1) vs. 2.6 trillion to put it in place. That is assuming cars on the road right now get 15 mpg and the hybrids get 50 mpg. It’d take 14 years to break even. So those numbers work for your plan and it still isn’t very pretty. Do it with real gas milage and car prices and it just gets worse.

I found this gas milage comparision tool. Comparing my present car (Hyundai Elantra) to a Honda Civic hybrid on the site I would save ~467 dollars a year by switching.

Slee

#1 Average miles per week cite.

Average miles per week= 225*52 weeks per year (scroll down some)
11700 average miles per year
X 123400000 number of cars
= 1549080000000 miles per year
/15 MPG
=103,272,000,000 gallons of gas

= 1549080000000 miles per year/50 MPG
= 30,981,600,000 gallons of gas

103,272,000,000

  • 30,981,600,000

72,290,400,000 gallons of gas saved a year.
*2.5
=180,726,000,000 saved per year

but, hey, think what it would do for the gdp.

btw, in terms of roi, even if the only benefits were measured in actual dollars of spending on oil forgone (and I believe we could find some others we have not figured in) remembr that the money “spent” for the cars is not burned up like the 2 trillion for the iraq war,k but is spent here in america and circulatyed.

I suppose if you wish to be churlish, and spoil the oprah moment, we could limit it to one car per licensed driver.

I will concede that “90 days” was hyperbole (tho you did not net back in the taxes on the car sales and productrion, vs. unemployment payments, (largely federal money, ) etc.

Now please add in some fraction of the projected savings from cuting 50 category 5 hurricanes down to category 3.

plese add, as well, some cash value added for asthma decreased in the inner city because the hybrids run electric during the most polluting phases of internal combustion engines, viz. idling, and accelerating from dead stops.

I must also remonstrate that your analysis neglected to consider the return to the government from selling the returned vehicles to countries where the ban is not in effect. That would likely be at least 10% of the cost.

It might not be irretrievably shortsighted to say that cars over 15 years old don’t get replaced, but the government accepts them as down payment for the new hybrid, and finances it at 0% for 5 years.

[QUOTE=alaricthegoth]
I must also remonstrate that your analysis neglected to consider the return to the government from selling the returned vehicles to countries where the ban is not in effect. That would likely be at least 10% of the cost.

So you want to CUT emissions by having the government buy everyone new cars then SELL the old cars to someone else in another country? You’d end up with more cars and more emissions. That’ll work if you believe that only CO2 from US cars matters.

And where did you get that 10% number?

You are still a trillion or two short. It isn’t even close to workable.

Slee

But Alaric does have a cogent point in that first post, and it is the same as was made succintly by jshore. And is the answer to the op. It is possible to approach the global climate change situation as a business decision. Businesses look at potential future risks to their future operations and via a cost-benefit risk analysis insure themselves against future losses by way of various techniques such as hedging and insurance policies. That Science Policy Forum that he linked to undertakes a detailed analysis using a table much like that envisaged by Alaric. That analysis shows that relatively inexpensive interventions now are good business decisions on the basis of such a hedge against future loss analysis

And such an analysis doesn’t even include simpler things, like regulating SUVs as cars for gas milage requirements.

Is that not a contradiction? If we release gases today, they have an effect for another 50 years, so cutting them off today will not have an effect for another 50 years surely? :confused:

Makes me think, a couple of stories of a flood would probably cover my workplace (I wonder if important buildings will get an SF style dome to help them survive) and might just reach my girlfriend’s pad too :smack:

No. If you stop a molecule of CO2 entering the atmosphere now, you eliminate it’s effect as of now and in the future as long as you can keep that molecule out of the atmosphere. However, the molecules you haven’t stopped up to now will continue to have effects for about 50 years from the time of their release.

That’s funny, because to me it read more like you were making a statement of fact.

You might want to re-read what you actually said before back-pedalling.

‘I meant said what I said and I said what I meant.’ as Horton would say. If I failed to write what I meant, I blame a lack of morning caffeine.

Of course, the overall effect won’t be felt for another 50 years, but no longer :smack:

So because our models of climate change have been shown to be worthless we should rush into doing more to abate anthropogenic climate change, which we only accept because it is indicated by our models of climate change.

:confused:
There is something massively inherently illogical and untenable in this position.

As we have discussed at length on these boards, the only real reason to believe that anthropgenic climate change (Global Warming from here on) even exists is if we have faith in the models. The physical evidence, the theoretical basis and so forth are highly ambiguous. The linchpin in the whole Global Warming hypothesis is the climate models.

And certainly the only way we can anticipate the risks and formulate approriate responses is through the models.

And now this guy is coming out and saying that the models are worthless and on that basis we should be more concerned about Global Warming, more certain it is occuring and more willing to remove freedoms to minimise any risks.

This isn’t science, it’s illogical hokum.

In real science if our models are shown to be worthless in their predictive capacity we take that as evidence of the null hypothesis. IOW we assume no change. We do not assert that because the models are worthless the change must be even larger than the model predicted.

As I understand it, he’s saying that those particular models of glacial ice vastly underestimate the rate at which they can melt and thus contribute to rising sea levels. He’s not saying the old models were worthless because they deviated from the null hypothesis, but because they didn’t deviate enough.

And models of any kind are all about prediciting what might happen: we don’t use a model to predict the past, we just look at the physical evidence of rising temperatures and a vast increase (nearly 40% in just a couple of hundred years of industrial fossil fuel use) in the concentration of gases which are known to increase temperature.

Deniers of anthropogenic climate change are in the tiny, tiny minority amongst climatologists. Of course I hope they’re right, but I’d like to state to any of my grandchildren reading this post that I’m not one of them (an ACC denier, that is - or a climatologist for that matter).

Hanson is not talking here about the climate models as a whole but only what they include concerning the melting and disintegration of ice sheets, which is a highly nonlinear and not very well-understood process. The fact that ice sheet disintegration seems to occur much more rapidly than models predict is very important and does not in anyway nullify what the climate models have to say about anthropogenic climate change in general.

This is not in fact true. We have many independent theoretical reasons to believe in it:

(1) Basic physics tells us what the forcing is due to the rising greenhouse gas concentrations. It is easy to work out the temperature rise that such a forcing should produce in the absence of any feedbacks. (It turns out to be a bit over 1 deg C for a doubling of CO2 concentrations.)

(2) Basic physics also makes it plausible that such a warming will produce a positive feedback due to increased evaporation of water vapor which will then cause further warming. Such increased concentrations of water vapor are what the climate models do predict. (Roughly speaking, they predict absolute humidity to increase such that relative humidity remains about constant.) Various studies (measurements of water vapor in the atmosphere, climate response to the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo, …) are now demonstrating that the climate models seem to be handling the water vapor feedback at least roughly correctly.

(3) There are other positive feedbacks such as the melting of ice and snow causing a decrease in the earth’s albedo that also have a strong theoretical basis. (And, if the disintegration of ice is being underestimated then this positive feedback will tend to be too.)

(4) There are other feedbacks that are more uncertain…in particular, clouds. However, there are still various ways that one can independently check the model predictions. For example, there was a recent study in which certain parameters in the climate models were varied over estimated ranges of uncertainty and the range of predictions was looked at. It was found to be essentially impossible to get a climate sensitivity below ~2 C for a doubling of CO2 when the parameters were varied over these ranges. Also, climate sensitivity can be estimated from paleoclimatology, especially the ice age - interglacial oscillations; Hansen has argued that this gives a climate sensitivity in the range of 2-4 C for a doubling of CO2, which is pretty much the same range as the models. Some other paleoclimatologists have argued that, if anything, the historical record suggests that the models may be somewhat underestimating climate sensitivity.

(5) Then there are all the studies of “detection and attribution” of the climate change that is currently occurring. This includes changes in surface air temperatures as well as ocean temperatures. There have been many studies that have studied the temporal and spatial distribution of these changes and attempted to try to explain them by combinations of natural and anthropogenic forcings. The changes of the last ~30 years have not been successfully explained without considering anthropogenic forcings.

I am sure there are other pieces of evidence that one can come up with (e.g., I have left out the circumstantial evidence for anthropogenic climate change that comes from climate proxy reconstructions that suggest that the current warming is unprecedented over the last 1000-2000 years).