# NASA wants a permanent Moonbase -- good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218 "2006-12-07T14:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/101 "2006-12-11T09:38:34Z")
I’m all for the expense for producing a permanent moon station which I think will make great strides in interplanetory exploration. Earth is being poluted…oceans fished out…water supplies will be limited…Many scientists predict that within 50- 100 years from now, earth will be unable to support its people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/102 "2006-12-11T16:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=OliverTwistofLime] Many scientists predict that within 50- 100 years from now, earth will be unable to support its people. [/QUOTE] !!! Cite? ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/103 "2006-12-11T18:23:30Z")
Here’s an interesting editorial from[Slate](http://www.slate.com/id/2155164/?nav=tap3) arguing against a moon base. I have to say I agree with his “What should NASA do?” paragraph. NASA’s priorities seem a bit out of whack when it comes to crewed missions vs. other missions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/104 "2006-12-11T18:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] The rate of scientific progress isn’t increasing in a steady curve but in leaps and bounds . . . [/QUOTE] Well, sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes a line of technological development runs into a dead end. What breakthroughs have been made lately in [strong AI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_ai) or [nanotechnology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology) or [neural-electronic interface](http://neuralink.com/)? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/105 "2006-12-11T19:02:06Z")
[QUOTE=OliverTwistofLime] I’m all for the expense for producing a permanent moon station which I think will make great strides in interplanetory exploration. Earth is being poluted…oceans fished out…water supplies will be limited…Many scientists predict that within 50- 100 years from now, earth will be unable to support its people. [/QUOTE] And the Moon has no oceans, limited water supplies, and far less ability to support a population than even an Earth far more polluted than the one we’ve got would have. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/106 "2006-12-11T19:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] And the Moon has no oceans, limited water supplies, and far less ability to support a population than even an Earth far more polluted than the one we’ve got would have. [/QUOTE] Check out a copy of Heinlein’s [_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress) and read the **last** chapter very carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/107 "2006-12-11T20:01:08Z")
[Here](http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/12/11/lunar.base.cost.ap/index.html) is an interesting article that was just posted to CNN. It names an initial price tag of $104 billion, but then goes on to say that they won’t name a final figure because they just “don’t know yet.” ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/108 "2006-12-11T23:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] And the Moon has no oceans, limited water supplies, and far less ability to support a population than even an Earth far more polluted than the one we’ve got would have. [/QUOTE] Basically. Even given an absolute worst-case Malthusian sort of collapse in 50-100 years, humanity will have an infinitely better chance at surviving on Earth than anywhere else imaginable. There’s simply no way that we can set up a self-sufficient, long-term colony given current or near-future technology. The hundreds of billions would be better spent keeping this planet from falling apart. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/109 "2006-12-11T23:11:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Check out a copy of Heinlein’s [_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress) and read the **last** chapter very carefully. [/QUOTE] Care to quote and/or summarize that chapter? I don’t have a copy, and can’t get to a library any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/110 "2006-12-12T09:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] !!! Cite? [/QUOTE] BrainGlutton: Quoting articles to you does not prove or disprove my statement…If you believe that the oceans are NOT being fished out at a rapid rate…that millions of acres of African green have not disappeared as a result of climactic events, over population, Lake Chad has become only a shadow of itself than I challenge you to cite references..which prove me wrong. I’m here to learn…I do not propose that the moon be utilized as a secondary source for earth population…The base is to help enable us to scientifically make space travel more feasible sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/111 "2006-12-12T10:33:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Check out a copy of Heinlein’s [_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress) and read the **last** chapter very carefully. [/QUOTE] OK, I read it twice last night - it’s only 4 pages long. So?? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/112 "2006-12-12T18:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] OK, I read it twice last night - it’s only 4 pages long. So?? [/QUOTE] The point was that Manuel perceived the Moon’s economic future lay not in its being used as a farm (i.e., using its own resources, such as they were – mainly a limitless supply of sunlight), but as a way station or transshipment point at the top of an industrialized planet’s gravity well. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/113 "2006-12-13T01:32:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The point was that Manuel perceived the Moon’s economic future lay not in its being used as a farm (i.e., using its own resources, such as they were – mainly a limitless supply of sunlight), but as a way station or transshipment point at the top of an industrialized planet’s gravity well. [/QUOTE] From the Slate link in **mrklutz** ’ post: > [@](#): > > Don’t we need a moon base to go to Mars? No! When George W. Bush made his Mars-trip speech almost three years ago, he said a moon base should be built to support such a mission. This is gibberish. All concept studies of Mars flight involve an expedition departing from low-Earth orbit and traveling directly to the red planet. Stopping at the moon would require fuel to descend to the lunar surface, then blast off again, which would make any Mars mission hugely more expensive. The launch cost of fuel—that is, the cost of placing fuel into orbit—is the No. 1 expense for any manned flight beyond Earth. The Lunar Excursion Module, the part of the Apollo spacecraft that touched down, was two-thirds fuel—all exhausted landing and taking off again from the moon. Rocket technology hasn’t changed substantially since the 1960s, so a large portion of the weight of any Earth-to-Moon-to-Mars expedition would be dedicated to the fuel needed for just the layover. _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ is quite possibly Heinlein’s best novel. It’s still _fiction_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/114 "2006-12-13T02:00:27Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] From the Slate link in **mrklutz** ’ post: _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ is quite possibly Heinlein’s best novel. It’s still _fiction_. [/QUOTE] Your missing the point, which is not that the Moon might be used as a way station for small **exploratory** missions to the rest of the Solar System, but that it might be used as a launching pad for **colonization** and **industrialization** of the Solar System, as well as a transshipment point when such colonies are established. You know, like New York City grew to an important megalopolis after completion of the Erie Canal made it the preferred port of entry for commerce between Europe and the American interior. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/115 "2006-12-13T04:54:54Z")
Only because a change in mode of transportation was required at the coast. But if you have a ship in space, going somewhere else in space, you’ll be in a spaceship all the way. Why make a stop on the way, so soon after leaving on the way out, or almost to your destination, on the way back? Just make the trip direct. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/116 "2006-12-13T04:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Only because a change in mode of transportation was required at the coast. But if you have a ship in space, going somewhere else in space, you’ll be in a spaceship all the way. Why make a stop on the way, so soon after leaving on the way out, or almost to your destination, on the way back? Just make the trip direct. [/QUOTE] That in mind, I could see a moon base as an “anchor point”. Just as very large ships anchor offshore sometimes and send smaller launch boats onshore, perhaps ships hailing from other parts of the solar system could dock at a moon base, and smaller shuttle-type vehicles could bring passenger and cargo to Earth. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/117 "2006-12-13T05:15:29Z")
Assuming your liner can’t re-enter, you can send tenders between it and Earth just as easily, and probably much more so, from Earth orbit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/118 "2006-12-14T22:48:40Z")
FYI, SF writer Spider Robinson has just begun an 8-month term as the writer-in-residence at Vancouver’s H.R. MacMillan Space Center – and anybody interested at all in this thread should dig his first [two](http://www.hrmacmillanspacecentre.com/pdfs/Spider1.pdf) [articles](http://www.hrmacmillanspacecentre.com/pdfs/Spider2.pdf) (pdf files). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/119 "2006-12-14T22:51:44Z")
See also [here.](http://www.spiderrobinson.com/hrmacmillan.html) ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218/120 "2006-12-14T23:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Assuming your liner can’t re-enter, you can send tenders between it and Earth just as easily, and probably much more so, from Earth orbit. [/QUOTE] I would guess that cargo transfer\* would be easier in a gravitational field. Much less room for accident or loss. \*I realize this raises the question of what sort of cargo would be coming from that far off, but my opinion is that we don’t know enough about what’s out there to say for sure there is NOTHING we might someday want to ship back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nasa-wants-a-permanent-moonbase-good-idea/383218.md?page=7)