# Nastiest chemical ever (Hypergolic with test engineers, asbestos, sand...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 7, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652 "2009-03-07T14:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/1 "2009-03-07T14:30:01Z")
In case you don’t know, ‘hypergolic’ means it burns on contact: If something is hypergolic with water, that means it burns on contact with water, like pure sodium does. If something is hypergolic with wood, sand, asbestos, and cloth, that means it is the devil’s own urine, also known as [chlorine trifluoride.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride) [Sand won’t save you this time](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php): > [@](#): > > I have not encountered this fine substance myself, but reading up on its properties immediately gives it a spot on my “no way, no how” list. Let’s put it this way: during World War II, the Germans were very interested in using it in self-igniting flamethrowers, but found it too nasty to work with. Josef Mengele didn’t frighten the Nazis. This stuff did. > [@](#): > > The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. Asbestos is nasty enough when it’s quietly shedding needle-like fuzz to enter your lungs and destroy them from the inside. I can only imagine what the smoke coming off of burning asbestos would do to you. And burning bricks is just _wrong._ But that isn’t the last of it: > [@](#): > > There’s a report from the early 1950s (in [this PDF](http://www.airproducts.com/nr/rdonlyres/8479ed55-2170-4651-a3d4-223b2957a9f3/0/safetygram39.pdf)) of a one-ton spill of the stuff. It burned its way through a foot of concrete floor and chewed up another meter of sand and gravel beneath, completing a day that I’m sure no one involved ever forgot. That process, I should add, would necessarily have been accompanied by copious amounts of horribly toxic and corrosive by-products: it’s bad enough when your reagent ignites wet sand, but the **clouds of hot hydrofluoric acid** are your special door prize if you’re foolhardy enough to hang around and watch the fireworks. Hydrofluoric acid is massively nasty. It isn’t as nasty as chlorine trifluoride, but [it has its moments](http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/H3994.htm): > [@](#): > > Corrosive to the skin. Skin contact causes serious skin burns which may not be immediately apparent or painful. Symptoms may be delayed 8 hours or longer. The fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin causing destruction of deep tissue layers and even bone. So it gets on you and you don’t even notice. Eight hours later you’re in excruciating pain and it’s eating away at your bones. _That_ is what chlorine trifluoride likes to throw off. My closing remarks will be from John Clark, someone who attempted to use it as rocket fuel: > [@](#): > > “It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that’s the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. **For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.** ” I love chemistry. ---
**Author:** ![Alienhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/2 "2009-03-07T15:24:48Z")
I was already giggling at the prospect of a sand castle fire, then I read the [MSDS](http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g240.pdf)(pdf) and just lost it when I got to this line in General Protection: > [@](#): > > DO NOT TAKE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING HOME. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/3 "2009-03-07T15:38:18Z")
It’s funny, because I read that exact entry the other day. I got turned onto the blog when the C&EN blog linked to his discussion of the dustup in OPRD. When I found that I laughed my head off. Everyone make sure to check the PDF; it’s probably the first safety bulletin I’ve seen involving burning chicken breast. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/4 "2009-03-07T15:45:10Z")
I’m pretty sure cilantro has this stuff beat. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Peste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Doctor\_Peste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Peste)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/5 "2009-03-07T16:26:00Z")
Favorite line: “Tissue destruction proceeds under toughened coagulated skin resulting in deep ulcers, slow healing, and scarring.” Mon Dieu. ---
**Author:** ![Alastair\_Moonsong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Alastair\_Moonsong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alastair_Moonsong)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/6 "2009-03-07T17:20:05Z")
Is it bad that I really really REALLY want to get my paws on a jug of this stuff just to see what it will and will not burn? ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/7 "2009-03-07T18:40:05Z")
What do you store it in? ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/8 "2009-03-07T18:52:05Z")
you’d probably need magnetically isolated bottles, like what they use to store Antimatter on ST-TNG 😉 hmm, combine this compound with antimatter… \ “Instant Antimatter, just add water” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![krisolov](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krisolov/32/3724_2.png) [@krisolov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krisolov)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/9 "2009-03-07T19:17:41Z")
I worked for a chemical company that handled HF on a fairly regular basis. The cylinders were steel, and had been passivated by allowing a small amount of HF into the cylinder. It created a metal-fluoride film on the inside which protected the steel and prevented internal corrosion. We looked at storing ClF3 at our facility and had some general safety training on storage and transport of it. It’s every bit as nasty as you’ve heard. We decided we didn’t want the stuff on the premises, and we stored some pretty nasty stuff otherwise, like silane, HF, SO2 and bulk chlorine. This stuff was just too risky. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/10 "2009-03-07T19:34:02Z")
On the bright side, this stuff can’t be at all persistent. So yeah, if you spill it, the short-term effects will be ugly indeed, but once the fireworks are over, you can probably move back in without worrying about residue. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/11 "2009-03-07T20:51:07Z")
It seems ironic that one of the treatments for skin contact with this wildly dangerous stuff is Bactine. You may remember this as the home first-aid stuff in a white bottle with green cap that Mom would squirt on a skinned knee. > [@](#): > > Skin Contact: > > 1. Remove the victim from the contaminated area and immediately place him under a safety shower or wash him with a water hose, whichever is available. 2) Remove all contaminated clothing. Handle all HF-contaminated material with gloves made of appropriate material, such as PVC or neoprene. 3) Keep washing with large amounts of water for a minimum of 15 minutes. 4) Have someone make arrangements for medical attention while you continue flushing the affected area with water. 5) If the following materials are available, limit the washing to five minutes and immerse the burned area in a solution of 0.2% iced aqueous Hyamine 1622 or 0.13% iced **aqueous Zephiran Chloride**. If immersion is not practical, towels should be soaked with one of the above solutions and used as compresses for the burn area. Ideally compresses should be changed every 2 minutes. Alternately, 2.5% calcium gluconate gel should be massaged into the affected area. 6) Seek medical attention as soon as possible for all burns regardless of how minor they may appear initially. Hyamine 1622 is a trade name for tetracaine benzethonium chloride, Merck Index Monograph 1078, a quaternary ammonium compound sold by Rohm & Haas, Philadelphia. **Zephiran Chloride is a trade name for benzalkonium chloride.** (bolding mine) > [@www.bactine.com](#): > > Active Ingredients > > Benzalkonium Cl 0.13% w/w (First aid antiseptic) > Lidocaine HCl 2.5% w/w (Pain relieving liquid) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/12 "2009-03-07T21:26:57Z")
If you need treatment with a compound invented by Zephiran Cockran you know its bad 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/13 "2009-03-07T21:36:48Z")
> [@Alastair\_Moonsong](#): > > Is it bad that I really really REALLY want to get my paws on a jug of this stuff just to see what it will and will not burn? Everything; nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/14 "2009-03-07T22:04:27Z")
Aside from the fact that this stuff sounds like what Xenomorphs bleed, exposure to fluorine compounds is especially insideous because it is biochemically poisonous, and can kill you in concentrations far below those that produce obvious burns. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/15 "2009-03-07T22:19:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Aside from the fact that this stuff sounds like what Xenomorphs bleed, exposure to fluorine compounds is especially insideous because it is biochemically poisonous, and can kill you in concentrations far below those that produce obvious burns. If you manage to kill yourself with this stuff in a way that doesn’t produce obvious burns, you’re clearly not using it right. Your eulogy: “He was such an idiot, he couldn’t even burn himself with ClF[sub]3[/sub].” The irony is even crueler if your funeral plans specify cremation. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/16 "2009-03-07T22:44:30Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > What do you store it in? Most likely, a teflon coated lecture bottle, or a tanker if your using it to fluorinate on a large scale. This is standard stuff to fluorine chemists. On average, fluorine chemists have fewer fingers than the general population. > [@Chronos](#): > > On the bright side, this stuff can’t be at all persistent. So yeah, if you spill it, the short-term effects will be ugly indeed, but once the fireworks are over, you can probably move back in without worrying about residue. Yea, but it produces hydrofluoric acid which won’t improve the situation a whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/17 "2009-03-07T22:56:46Z")
So THIS is what the _Alien_’s blood is made of. ---
**Author:** ![lunar\_elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lunar\_elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunar_elf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/18 "2009-03-08T00:05:01Z")
One of my first real jobs while in collge was working admin at a specialty chemical manufacturer. The first thing they told me when I got there was ‘death is a possibility every day when you come to work, but here’s our safety training to help you be prepared in case of a chemical release!’ Once every so often they’d run evacuations drills, siren wails that’d signify there was a chemical release in the area as some of the chemicals were odorless and dangerous. I was also the web designer reading over the MSDSs and chemical names made my head spin and skin crawl. Unless you were a chemist or a one of the handlers, you really didn’t want to go production side alone. One of the most publicized safety notices was over [pentaborane](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentaborane)(1950s high energy rocket fuel) that still may be laying around in various facilities. Whatever you do, just don’t lick the chemical to identify what to do 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/19 "2009-03-08T00:20:29Z")
I think that **Thionyl Chloride** could give this stuff a run for the money. It’s incredibly corrosive and has been known to eat its way through _Teflon_ (which will stand up to Hydrofluoric Acid). It causes blistering on the skin and, if inhaled, causes edema, even in tiny quantities. A spil of 2 _milliliters_ of this stuff – that’s the amount in one of those inner contains in a package of “Krazy Glue” (the tiny sliver of a tube closed with the pin-cap) — caused the evacuation of an entire building at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. What would you use something like this for? It turns out that it’s one of the few substances you can dissolve neodymium in and still have a large gain profile and no absorption, for building liquid neodymium lasers. But in order to dissolve the rare earth ion, you first have to make the Thionyl Chloride an aprotic acid, by adding compounds to it. Making it acidic enabled it to eat through seals, which didn’t make people working with it feel comfortable. Highly acidic, corrosive, causing edema in small quuantities. About the only way it could be worse is if it was radioactive. So damned if they didn’t do that, too. If you add uranium salts to it, you get an improvement in the fluorescent yield of your laser. Although it does make it radioactive. Edited to add: From the Wikipedia page: > [@](#): > > SOCl2 is a reactive compound that can explosively release dangerous gases upon contact with water and other reagents. Industrial production of thionyl chloride is controlled under the Chemical Weapons Convention, where it is listed in schedule 3. > **[Thionyl chloride](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thionyl_chloride)** > > Thionyl chloride is an inorganic compound with the chemical formula SOCl2. It is a moderately volatile, colourless liquid with an unpleasant acrid odour. Thionyl chloride is primarily used as a chlorinating reagent, with approximately 45,000 tonnes (50,000 short tons) per year being produced during the early 1990s, but is occasionally also used as a solvent. It is toxic, reacts with water, and is also listed under the Chemical Weapons Convention as it may be used for the production of Thionyl chl... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652/20 "2009-03-08T00:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Yea, but it produces hydrofluoric acid which won’t improve the situation a whole lot. But then, HF isn’t exactly the most long-lived of compounds, either. It’s much the same deal as with radioactive materials: The most reactive stuff is the most dangerous, in the short term at least, but because it’s so reactive it doesn’t stick around for long. The things that last for a really long time, you almost never have to worry about, since they’re so slow to do anything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nastiest-chemical-ever-hypergolic-with-test-engineers-asbestos-sand/488652.md?page=2)