# Natasha Richardson's brain injury...no blow, how so devastating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925 "2009-03-18T18:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/1 "2009-03-18T18:47:38Z")
From what I can gather, and I might be wrong, Natasha Richardson did not actually suffer any blow to her skull. What has happened to her brain was caused by something other than a direct blow. What can happen to you in a fall that would result in a delayed catastrophic situation if the fall did not result in a direct blow to the skull? Is it something that can happen to your neck, your spine, the general shaking? I read one comment from a doctor that the consistency of our brain tissue is like blancmange, which is an alarming notion… make me afraid to shake my head “no” for fear I’ll dislodge something. I’ve been very disturbed by this very sad event, and I’d like to have a better understanding of what might have happened. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/2 "2009-03-18T18:55:19Z")
I’m sure one of our good doctors will be along but you can shake the brain hard enough to bruise against the skull. Don’t know how hard or how you could without a direct blow but not from just shaking your head. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/3 "2009-03-18T19:05:04Z")
Just my .02 Some could have an aneurysm and not know it. That is why some refer to aneurysm’s as time bombs. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/4 "2009-03-18T19:07:41Z")
Think of it like cracking a whip – the tip moves pretty damn fast.\* The speed is less for the head, but it can have the same effect if your body is suddenly stops while going at a high speed and your head keeps moving forward. You’d need to move a lot faster than you can shake your head, though. \*Supersonic speeds, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/5 "2009-03-18T19:09:23Z")
I believe Dale Earnhardt’s head never struck anything when he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/6 "2009-03-18T19:12:34Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I’m sure one of our good doctors will be along but you can shake the brain hard enough to bruise against the skull. Don’t know how hard or how you could without a direct blow but not from just shaking your head. The issue is acceleration/deceleration, and I think the medical term is “closed head injury”. Shaken Baby Syndrome is probably the most well known example of this, but in adults, it typically occurs in motor vehicle accidents. The person’s head doesn’t strike anything, but the damage is caused from the brain slamming into the inside of the skull. Not sure if the delayed onset supports my layman’s diagnosis, and I’ve no idea how such an injury might occur on a beginner’s ski run. For those that aren’t familiar with the story, [here’s what the NY Times is reporting](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/us/19richardson.html?ref=arts). > [@](#): > > Lyne Lortie, a spokeswoman for the Mont Tremblant ski resort in the Laurentian Hills north of Montreal, said Ms. Richardson had fallen during a beginner’s lesson. She was not wearing a helmet at the time, she said. > > “It was a normal fall; she didn’t hit anyone or anything,” Ms. Lortie said. “She didn’t show any signs of injury; she was talking and she seemed all right.” > > As a precaution, when she left the slopes, Ms. Richardson was accompanied by a member of the resort’s ski patrol and her instructor, who then remained with her at her hotel. > > When she began complaining of a headache about an hour later, she was taken by ambulance to a hospital in Ste. Agathe, Quebec, about 20 minutes from the resort. Ms. Lortie said that Ms. Richardson was transferred to the Hôpital du Sacré-Coeur de Montréal later in the afternoon . ---
**Author:** ![ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/7 "2009-03-18T19:18:11Z")
Yeah, but my understanding re: Earnhardt’s injury was the force of his helmet moving forward severed his spine, not death via brain damage. A very close friend of mine worked for NJ Dept of Health’s Traumatic Brain Injury Program and I did some contract work for them last summer. My slightly educated guess is a broken blood vessel causing damage via intercrainial pressure, not actual trauma to the brain directly. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/8 "2009-03-18T19:24:43Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I believe Dale Earnhardt’s head never struck anything when he was killed. There is some debate about that, which is what led to the attempt to have his autopsy records unsealed. The official cause of death was a basilar skull fracture – a fracture at the base of the skull. There are two theories about how this happened. One is that it was caused by a violent forward head whip. The other is that he struck his chin on the steering wheel. But other evidence contradicts both theories. Don’t want to hijack this thread to talk about Earnhardt, but do want to raise this important distinction. He was travelling at close to 200mph and hit a concrete wall. Richardson fell down during a ski lesson. On preview… [QUOTE=ryan] yeah, but my understanding re: Earnhardt’s injury was the force of his helmet moving forward severed his spine [/QUOTE] Nope. Earnhardt’s spine and skull didn’t separate. See [CNN’s repor](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar_plus/news/2001/03/26/fish_autopsyreport/)t, or countless others. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/9 "2009-03-18T19:26:31Z")
Newsweek is running a pretty good interview on the injury - apparently, delayed serious swelling is rare, but it can be set off by even a minor blow. See: [Natasha Richardson and Traumatic Brain Injury](http://www.newsweek.com/id/189848) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/10 "2009-03-18T19:27:07Z")
CNN has [a fairly detailed article about hidden brain injuries](http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/18/brain.injury/index.html). > [@Philster](#): > > I believe Dale Earnhardt’s head never struck anything when he was killed. [Dale Earnhardt died](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Dale_Earnhardt) of a [basilar skull fracture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture). In other words, had he been wearing the [HANS Device](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device) he most probably be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/11 "2009-03-18T19:34:13Z")
Quote: Lyne Lortie, a spokeswoman for the Mont Tremblant ski resort in the Laurentian Hills north of Montreal, said Ms. Richardson had fallen during a beginner’s lesson. She was not wearing a helmet at the time, she said. “It was a normal fall; she didn’t hit anyone or anything,” Ms. Lortie said. “She didn’t show any signs of injury; she was talking and she seemed all right.” Quote I would not take this statement to mean that she didn’t hit her head against the ground. the brain floats in a pool of cerebrospinal fluid which is contained by the skull. You can slam your head hard enough, say on the forehead, that it will bounce back hard enough to injure the posterior part of the brain as well. Shearing forces can disrupt vasculature, especially if there’s a weak spot such as an arteriorvenous malformation. I know absolutely nothing about this particular case. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/12 "2009-03-18T21:09:02Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Quote: > I would not take this statement to mean that she didn’t hit her head against the ground. Well, they said she didn’t hit anything, i assume that means the ground, people say it when someone’s head smacks the ground, and the need to check such a thing is obvious. Secondly, if you’re taking a ski lesson, what is “ground”. aren’t you on a carpet of snow? If the snow is thin enough for you to hit the actual ground, I don’t think you can ski at all, can you? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/13 "2009-03-18T21:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > “ **It was a normal fall** ; she didn’t hit anyone or anything,” Ms. Lortie said. “She didn’t show any signs of injury; she was talking and she seemed all right.” > > As a precaution, when she left the slopes, Ms. Richardson was accompanied by a member of the resort’s ski patrol and her instructor, **who then remained with her at her hotel**. This confused me. Certainly “normal falls” happen hundreds of times a day for any given ski slope during ski season, and they don’t all result in a dispatch of ski patrol to accompany you to your hotel room. Maybe some of that can be chalked up to her celebrity status, but it seems like it wasn’t a “normal” fall. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/14 "2009-03-18T21:33:33Z")
My brother was on blood thinners after his strokes. The doctor told him no shooting until further notice. Of course he didn’t listen, stepped outside his cabin and lit off his .375 magnum. Next thing he remembers is his wife kneeling next to him and a monster headache coming on. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/15 "2009-03-18T21:39:31Z")
NASCAR was very lax on safety until Earnhardt died. That got them all scared and so their safety record is much better now. Earnhardt did not even wear a full face helmet, let alone a HANS device. ---
**Author:** ![JFLuvly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac91a4/32.png) [@JFLuvly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JFLuvly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/16 "2009-03-18T23:11:39Z")
The first thing I thought of was the possibility of a stroke similar to the ones you hear about that some people get after returning from the chiropractor. It could be bad and explain the time lag. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/17 "2009-03-19T00:07:54Z")
The human brain is not particularly well-cushioned in the skull. Any quick jerk to the head can result in the brain sloshing up against the inner skull. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/18 "2009-03-19T00:18:22Z")
CNN reporting that she has died. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/19 "2009-03-19T01:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > She was not wearing a helmet at the time, Would this have made any difference? From the speculations about the injury (either brain bruising against the inside of the skull, or causing bursting of a blood vessel in the brain), it seems to me that in either case, a helmet would not have done much at all to prevent this. Can anyone say? ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925/20 "2009-03-19T02:28:50Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well, they said she didn’t hit anything, i assume that means the ground, people say it when someone’s head smacks the ground, and the need to check such a thing is obvious. > > Secondly, if you’re taking a ski lesson, what is “ground”. aren’t you on a carpet of snow? If the snow is thin enough for you to hit the actual ground, I don’t think you can ski at all, can you? Snow on a ski hill can range from waist-deep powder to a very hard compact layer that resembles ice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natasha-richardsons-brain-injury-no-blow-how-so-devastating/489925.md?page=2)