# \*National Anesthetic Law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662 "2008-06-12T07:08:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/21 "2008-06-13T11:43:34Z")
Re: **Focusonz** > [@](#): > > I don’t remember the physical pain of being circumcised immediately after birth, nor do I remember the physical pain of slicing my palm open at age of 2 requiring about 30 stitches but I do remember the physical pain of shredding two inches of my arm on bard wire fence at age 7 and the physical pain of a nearly burst appendix at age 12 and dislocated shoulder at age 20. Babies do not feel pain? And your argument for this is that you don’t remember feeling pain at that age? :dubious: You also probably don’t have any visual memories from that time period–does that mean you didn’t have a sense of sight then? [QUOTE=WhyNot] No, but then again, you could say that about nearly any cosmetic procedure. Imagine, if you will, that we’re going to cut you open and insert small sacks of saline solution just under the skin above your pectoral muscles. No reason, really, just to make it look nice. […] It all sounds pretty bizarre, doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] (Putting aside the fact that circumcision isn’t a cosmetic procedure for most people,) Yup, that sounds bizarre–now imagine your parents want to do it to you _without asking you._ Because their rabbi said so. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/22 "2008-06-13T11:55:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mojo Pin] (Putting aside the fact that circumcision isn’t a cosmetic procedure for most people,) [/QUOTE] Should we? I know I’ve \*never \*seen an intact penis (on a grown man), and I’ve never dated a Jewish or Islamic man. Every penis I’ve been blessed enough to enjoy has been connected to a man from a socially Christian or areligious background. No religious reasons for circumcision there. When my son was born in 1993 just outside Chicago, the most common reason given in support of it was that your son’s penis would look like his fathers and like his schoolmates if you had him circumcised. You could chose not to, of course, but you’d be risking his being mocked in the locker room later in life or feeling like he was deformed when he watched his dad pee. ETA: Oh, and I was never asked if I wanted braces or those awful biannual scoliosis screenings in the mall in front of god ‘n’ everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/23 "2008-06-13T12:18:57Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] You could chose not to, of course, but you’d be risking his being mocked in the locker room later in life or feeling like he was deformed when he watched his dad pee. [/QUOTE] You know, there are a number of arguments in favour of circumcision that I can more or less understand, but this one is just fucking bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/24 "2008-06-13T12:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] No, but then again, you could say that about nearly any cosmetic procedure. Imagine, if you will, that we’re going to cut you open and insert small sacks of saline solution just under the skin above your pectoral muscles. No reason, really, just to make it look nice. [/quote] No thanks, I’m just not interested - and nobody does this to infants, do they? > [@](#): > > Or perhaps I can interest you in thrusting this bit of metal through your earlobe, or that of your infant daughter? It’ll look pretty and shiny. Yeah, well, I do actually feel pretty much the same about infant ear piercing as circumcision - although I guess it only leaves a tiny hole if the kid disagrees with the decision when it develops an opinion of its own. > [@](#): > > Or, perhaps we’ll glue metal bits onto your teeth and string them together with thick wire. Every four weeks, when it stops hurting, you come back and we’ll tighten the wire so it hurts again. Four years of this should just about do it, and then we’ll whack the metal bits with a pliers and hammer, because nothing dissolves that glue, we just have to break the metal off your teeth… My kids didn’t develop their second set of teeth until they were plenty old enough for the topic of dentistry to be discussed with them intelligently. Sure, they still weren’t keen on the idea, but they saw the _necessity_ of it. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/25 "2008-06-13T12:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] You know, there are a number of arguments in favour of circumcision that I can more or less understand, but this one is just fucking bizarre. [/QUOTE] Eh, made sense to me when I was 17 and barely out of the locker room myself, but yeah, it wouldn’t sway me today. But they really were worried about the psychological effects of \*not \*circumcising back then, at least in this culture. But I think Americans circumcise more than Brits, don’t we? (I don’t know recent numbers.) As well as more cosmetic dentistry and more infant ear piercing…so maybe we \*should \*just scrap it all and get over ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/26 "2008-06-13T12:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Eh, made sense to me when I was 17 and barely out of the locker room myself, but yeah, it wouldn’t sway me today. But they really were worried about the psychological effects of \*not \*circumcising back then, at least in this culture. But I think Americans circumcise more than Brits, don’t we? (I don’t know recent numbers.) As well as more cosmetic dentistry and more infant ear piercing…so maybe we \*should \*just scrap it all and get over ourselves. [/QUOTE] Dunno - I just can’t get my head around it - yes, probably because circumcision is not at all ingrained in the culture in which I grew up. But cutting off part of a child’s penis because you’re concerned he might be ridiculed at some future point just seems to stand out as… well… a bit… _spineless and thin-skinned_, at least in contrast to what I thought was a generally American ethic of self-reliance, standing up to bullies, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/27 "2008-06-13T13:47:59Z")
Is there still evidence that circumcision is a near-100% effective counter for penile cancers? I know that’s a ridiculously insignificant risk in the first place, but still. Any son I have is likely to get circumcised, due to Jewishness of wife. Aside from making sure that the kid has adequate attention paid to his pain, with meds and such, I’m ambivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/28 "2008-06-13T14:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] But I think Americans circumcise more than Brits, don’t we? (I don’t know recent numbers.) [/QUOTE] Circumcision in the UK (and in most of Western Europe AFAIK and IAMNAD) is generally carried out only for medical or religious reasons. It’s not something that would be offered as a service to the new parent by medical staff as a matter of course, and, I believe, many doctors would have slight ethical qualms about performing any operation without a medical reason for doing so (although I don’t know what the situation is in regards to parents rights in requesting the procedure). Nothing really to add to the discussion other than that. I’ll let our American cousins argue this out amongst themselves, as in the UK this seems mostly a non-issue, due to medical circumcision of infants being decidedly not the norm. OB ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/29 "2008-06-13T14:04:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] …what I thought was a generally American ethic of self-reliance, standing up to bullies, etc. [/QUOTE] 😕 Um…no. Not in the least. I think you have us confused with John Wayne. Americans of the last half century are poll-checking, Cosmo reading, trend following sheeple. Of course we want to be individuals - as long as we still get to have the same music, houses, cars, tv shows, tax rebate checks and bodies as everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/30 "2008-06-13T14:24:21Z")
Again, this is an excellent article on the history of circumcision in the US and Europe [http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com\_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=73&Itemid=52](http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=73&Itemid=52) It is not up to the Doctor to give advice on the non-medical questions regarding circumcision and should be the last person you ask. The decision to perform circumcision should be made long before the kid drops after consulting with family, friends, ministers, priests, rabis, or a psychiatrist if the aforementioned are unavailable. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/31 "2008-06-13T14:29:19Z")
If you look here you will find some statistics on circumcision in Europe. Just ignore the cat fight at the end of the thread. [http://www.justmommies.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=383377](http://www.justmommies.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=383377) ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/32 "2008-06-13T14:32:17Z")
The main two health reasons for circumcision are the near total elimination of penile cancer (probably due to HPV) and the drastic reduction of [HIV transmission](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/health/13cnd-hiv.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). Considering that we now have a fairly effective vaccine against HPV, and that HIV can be prevented by consistent safer sex practices, I think it’s completely plausible to argue against circumcision. I think the loaded, appeal-to-emotion arguments used by a lot of anti-circumcisionists do their cause a lot of damage. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/33 "2008-06-13T15:12:08Z")
I used to do circumcisions on newborns back when I did obstetrics. Strictly at parent’s request, and only after a talk with them about risks. Some parents changed their minds after the talk, most didn’t. Most wanted it for strictly non-religious ‘cultural’ reasons, to have their kid look like the ‘other guys’. I also used penile blocks as anesthetic, after seeing a few done and seeing that the babies were certainly calmer overall when anesthesia was used, in my estimation. Oh, they’d still cry, but it was less intense and less associated with particularly gory parts of the procedure. I never got paid more for doing the procedure than I would have if I hadn’t done it. I also wasn’t sorry to give it up. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/34 "2008-06-13T15:28:03Z")
Elaine Benes, on seeing an uncircumcised penis: “It had no _face_, no _personality_.” ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/35 "2008-06-13T17:12:29Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] with particularly gory parts of the procedure. [/QUOTE] That is a strange term ‘gory’ to be used by a doctor. And I wish you had not used it because it brings to mind the time the doctor said he was going to use forceps on my child’s brain to facilitate speedier birth. Now that is ‘gory’. I told him if he did, I would punch him in the nose. You cut the mother first, epiostomy, you dumb ass Doctor It also brings to mind partial birth abortions in the third trimester where doctors suck the brains out of a living crying child. Now that is way beyond ‘gory’ thats murder. > [@](#): > > The fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks and there is a 90% chance of survival if born at this point. [http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:HOb1T7FH5OsJ:www.wpclinic.org/parenting/fetal-development/third-trimester/+third+trimester+fetus+survival&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a](http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:HOb1T7FH5OsJ:www.wpclinic.org/parenting/fetal-development/third-trimester/+third+trimester+fetus+survival&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a) > [@](#): > > many abortion providers had adopted the practice of injecting the fetus with lethal drugs before all late-term abortions. [Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act) An abortion and lethal injection after the point of viability is murder! Anticipating argument on the point that murder is justified in the case of saving the life of the mother. The abortion law should remain mute because the decisions at that cusp if they result in negative consequences will always end up being a matter of civil malpractice litigation because the only satisfactory end result is that both child and mother should have survived. > [@](#): > > Congress first passed similar laws banning “partial-birth abortion” in December 1995", and again October 1997, but they **were vetoed by President Clinton** > > In the House, the final legislation was supported in 2003 by 218 Republicans and 63 Democrats. It was opposed by 4 Republicans, 137 Democrats, and 1 independent. Twelve members were absent, 7 Republicans and 5 Democrats. In the Senate the bill was supported by 47 Republicans and 17 Democrats. It was opposed by 3 Republicans, 30 Democrats, and 1 independent. Two Senators were absent, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tx.), a supporter of the bill, and Sen. John Edwards (D-NC), an opponent of the bill. > > On November 5, 2003, after being passed by both the House and the Senate, the bill was signed by President George W. Bush to become law [Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act) Clinton should have been impeached for murder along with all the opposing Republicans and Democrats. And Kerry’s behavior was despicable another one of those ‘I voted for it before I voted against it’ stances. He wanted to vote against murder but then voted for murder! **Signing of the bill is one of many of the very good things that President Bush has done in public service to America.** > [@](#): > > Fetal pain, its existence, and its implications are debated politically and academically. According to the conclusions of a review published in 2005, “Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.” However, there may be an emerging consensus among developmental microbiologist’s that the establishment of thalamocortical connections" (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain. **Nevertheless, because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it is “impossible to know” when painful experiences may become possible,** even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established. > > Whether a fetus has the ability to feel pain and to suffer is part of the abortion debate. For example, in the USA legislation has been proposed by pro-life advocates requiring abortion providers to tell a woman that the fetus may feel pain during the abortion procedure, and that require her to accept or decline anesthesia for the fetus. [Fetus - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus#Fetal_pain) And likewise it is impossible to know what effect that male circumcision with or without anesthesia have on society. So leave it alone. No law is necessary. It will sort itself out, eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/36 "2008-06-13T17:25:07Z")
Hmm, snipping penises gets linked to sucking out brains… Is this some kinda lead-in to an anti-male comedy routine about thinking with one’s dick? Because that’s really been done to death… ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/37 "2008-06-13T17:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] I believe … but chances are [/QUOTE] Are not basis for counter argument. [QUOTE=focusonz] In summary if parents decide to circumcise or not circumcise their baby boy with or without anesthesia **it don’t matter**. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=WhyNot] Don’t agree at all. [/QUOTE] Using your style of argument I will bet you that it will be learned that physical pain is necessary to fully develop the individual survival instinct (fright and flight) and emotional pain is necessary to develop the societal survival instinct (the sacrifice decision). A little pain is necessary to appreciate happiness. I consider a lack of a little pain is like too much antibacterial soap. The children’s system needs to be exercised for it to develop properly! [QUOTE=Lazarus Long] Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/38 "2008-06-13T21:10:50Z")
Wuh Duh Fuh? You think a thread about circumcision isn’t likely enough to result in a trainwreck, so you hijack it with non-sequiturs about abortion? Is that what it is? Blimey. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/39 "2008-06-13T21:53:20Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] That is a strange term ‘gory’ to be used by a doctor. And I wish you had not used it because it brings to mind the time the doctor said he was going to use forceps on my child’s brain to facilitate speedier birth. [/QUOTE] Gory: Bloody; bloodstained, I said it was gory because it is. Bleeding is involved. I’ll not sugar coat my descriptions. As for your doctor’s plan to use forceps on your child’s _head_, that’s generally a common, and pretty safe and effective practice. Gets baby out safely when he/she is stuck, reduces the risk of hypoxia and other dangers of overly prolonged labor, etc. The procedure has been generally superseded by the development of a suction device which attaches to the baby’s scalp. Brains don’t enter into it when it’s done properly, other than reducing the risk of hypoxic brain trauma. But further elaboration on that would be a topic for another thread, so I’ll say no more about it here. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662/40 "2008-06-13T22:30:30Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Again, this is an excellent article on the history of circumcision in the US and Europe > **[historyofcircumcision.net](http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=73&Itemid=52)** > > ancient circumcision rituals,circumcision cultural history,anthropology of circumcision It is not up to the Doctor to give advice on the non-medical questions regarding circumcision and should be the last person you ask. The decision to perform circumcision should be made long before the kid drops after consulting with family, friends, ministers, priests, rabis, or a psychiatrist if the aforementioned are unavailable. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s an odd bunch of people to consult before cutting off part of a child. I mean, I think I would actually prefer the opinions of doctors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anesthetic-law/452662.md?page=3)