# National Anthem controversy extending to schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596 "2017-09-29T15:25:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/21 "2017-09-29T16:56:19Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not as a way, as a reason. > Are you looking for an excuse? I thought you were against Antifa’s tactics. Would you approve of NFL banning the “take a knee” thing if there were threats of violence? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/22 "2017-09-29T17:04:24Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The court decision clearly affirmed that threats of violence are a way of controlling speech. > > Would you approve of NFL banning the “take a knee” thing if there were threats of violence? Can we just stick to the issue of children being told they are forbidden to do what the Supreme Court has already ruled they CAN do, please? There are other threads about the NFL/kneeling situation on this board. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/23 "2017-09-29T17:05:12Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Would you approve of NFL banning the “take a knee” thing if there were threats of violence? It was based on past acts of violence coupled with the specific threat of more. This is also related specifically to students in school. Read _your_ link. You seem to be looking for an excuse to shut down speech with violence. Is there a new right-wing group that we can call Profa? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/24 "2017-09-29T17:08:39Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Would you approve of NFL banning the “take a knee” thing if there were threats of violence? So, you want the terrorists to win? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/25 "2017-09-29T17:14:58Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > So, you want the terrorists to win? That court decision I cited apparently did support that kind of thinking. I don’t agree with that court decision. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/26 "2017-09-29T17:17:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we just stick to the issue of children being told they are forbidden to do what the Supreme Court has already ruled they CAN do, please? There are other threads about the NFL/kneeling situation on this board. OK. To come back to that, that court decision I cited apparently affirms that if there are threats of violence against the school or the school football players that refuse to stand for the anthem, the school should be able to tell them to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/27 "2017-09-29T17:19:15Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > That court decision I cited apparently did support that kind of thinking. I don’t agree with that court decision. Do you think school children should be forced to stand respectfully while the national anthem is being played although the Supreme Court has said otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/28 "2017-09-29T17:21:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think school children should be forced to stand respectfully while the national anthem is being played although the Supreme Court has said otherwise? Not in a public school, no. Private schools - up to the school. But I also think that the “threats of violence” should have nothing to do with that, and if there are “threats of violence”, the school should enforce peace and not stifle freedom of speech to appease the violence - like in the court case I cited. These decisions are political. I bet that if in the case I cited it was threats of violence from white supremacists over kids wearing MLK shirts or something, the school would not appease the threats by asking the MLK-shirt-wearers to turn them inside out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/29 "2017-09-29T17:21:54Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > OK. To come back to that, that court decision I cited apparently affirms that if there are threats of violence against the school or the school football players that refuse to stand for the anthem, the school should be able to tell them to do it. That decision affirms nothing of the sort, and this thread isn’t about the specific case. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/30 "2017-09-29T17:23:31Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > OK. To come back to that, that court decision I cited apparently affirms that\*\* if there are threats of violence against the school \*\*or the school football players that refuse to stand for the anthem, the school should be able to tell them to do it. No, it was in conjunction with previous events. I even quoted the relevant portion and you pretend it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/31 "2017-09-29T17:26:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No, it was in conjunction with previous events. > I even quoted the relevant portion and you pretend it doesn’t exist. As I said, if there were prior violent incidents from white supremacists in the school, I bet the school would not ask kids wearing MLK shirts to turn them inside out and you would be vehemently demanding that the school take care of the violence and not appease it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/32 "2017-09-29T17:32:29Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > As I said, if there were prior violent incidents from white supremacists in the school, I bet the school would not ask kids wearing MLK shirts to turn them inside out and you would be vehemently demanding that the school take care of the violence and not appease it. Any argument that contains “I bet you would do such-and-such if such-and-such happens!” is already lost. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/33 "2017-09-29T17:36:00Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Very nice. But schools [can ban displays of US flag](http://www.americanfreedomlawcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/11-17858.pdf). So I guess all it takes is threats of violence over national anthem protests, and schools can ban them as well? Maybe the court just doesn’t like the way those students were disrespecting the flag. > [@Your court case](#): > > In this case, after school officials learned of threats of race-related violence during a school-sanctioned celebration of Cinco de Mayo, the school **asked a group of students to remove clothing bearing images of the American flag**. > [@2 USC 176](#): > > No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America . . . (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. . . . (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. Somebody tell Donald Trump that the these students were plotting to disrespect the flag, and the brave teachers and Hispanic students put a stop to their evil plan! Heroes! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/34 "2017-09-29T17:36:54Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > As I said, if there were prior violent incidents from white supremacists in the school, I bet the school would not ask kids wearing MLK shirts to turn them inside out and you would be vehemently demanding that the school take care of the violence and not appease it. Don’t tell me what I would do. The safety of the students are paramount. There is no way any school is equipped to deal with violence without police involvement. Even then, it’s better for the violence to not happen. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/35 "2017-09-29T17:42:39Z")
I think forcing people to participate in rituals or produce specific content is a bad idea. Until the courts force schools and universities to abandon speech codes in general, I don’t see the point in the courts interfering in this specific case. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/36 "2017-09-29T18:05:00Z")
Please stop the hijack of the Heckler’s Veto regarding the flag display on Cinco de Mayo. [/moderating] \*on a side note, I do notice there “Bone’s ‘so I’m wrong’ rule” is alive and well. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/37 "2017-09-29T18:52:35Z")
Can I ask two questions on behalf of the rest of the world? Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at schools and colleges? Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at non-international sports events? It’s not like you anyone forget where they are, you have flags waving every which way all day. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/38 "2017-09-29T19:08:48Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Can I ask two questions on behalf of the rest of the world? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at schools and colleges? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at non-international sports events? > > It’s not like you anyone forget where they are, you have flags waving every which way all day. With questions like those, you must not support our troops! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/39 "2017-09-29T19:14:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ah, I have a subscription and didn’t know they were that aggressive. Here’s the short version: > > Kid is in a mall and runs to his mom in another store, saying some guy wants to buy him an Xbox. Mom gets alarmed, thinking it’s some pedophile deal. She goes with her son to the GameStop, and it’s two Washington Redskin players who overheard the kid saying he was saving up for the Xbox, and the clincher was that the kid was wearing a Kaepernick jersey. > > There’s a nice photo of the two ballplayers with the kid and the Xbox they bought him. Hey, that’s a great story. Nifty! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/40 "2017-09-29T19:21:11Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Can I ask two questions on behalf of the rest of the world? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at schools and colleges? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at non-international sports events? > > It’s not like you anyone forget where they are, you have flags waving every which way all day. [Nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596.md?page=3)