# National Anthem controversy extending to schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596 "2017-09-29T15:25:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/41 "2017-09-29T20:01:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think forcing people to participate in rituals or produce specific content is a bad idea. Until the courts force schools and universities to abandon speech codes in general, I don’t see the point in the courts interfering in this specific case. So you don’t think the school should stop the kids from kneeling, but you also don’t think the courts should do anything about it if the school does stop them from kneeling? I am confused. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/42 "2017-09-29T20:43:10Z")
It’s just a small liberty, no sense in raising a fuss about it. Chip…chip…chip… ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/43 "2017-09-29T21:03:28Z")
Two points: 1. The Supreme Court rightly treats schools somewhat differently than it does public venues, citing schools’ needs for “maintaining an environment in which learning can take place.” (_New Jersey_ v. _TLO_) Applying court decisions involving schools to incidents in other venues proves nothing. 2. In answer to the question about why schools play the National Anthem, it’s typically played at school-sponsored sporting events and is sometimes played at school assemblies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/44 "2017-09-29T21:07:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Two points: > > 1. The Supreme Court rightly treats schools somewhat differently than it does public venues, citing schools’ needs for “maintaining an environment in which learning can take place.” (_New Jersey_ v. _TLO_) Applying court decisions involving schools to incidents in other venues proves nothing. > > 2. In answer to the question about why schools play the National Anthem, it’s typically played at school-sponsored sporting events and is sometimes played at school assemblies. 1. I don’t think anyone was applying that argument to this situation. 2. That doesn’t answer the question of “Why?” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/45 "2017-09-29T21:20:58Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > 1. In answer to the question about why schools play the National Anthem, it’s typically played at school-sponsored sporting events and is sometimes played at school assemblies. This doesn’t address _why_ the anthem is played, only _when_ the anthem is played. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/46 "2017-09-29T21:22:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > So you don’t think the school should stop the kids from kneeling, but you also don’t think the courts should do anything about it if the school does stop them from kneeling? I am confused. Seems to be “why try to help people in America at all when there are starving kids in Africa” thinking, or, less dramatically, “the perfect is the enemy of the good”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/47 "2017-09-29T21:28:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This doesn’t address _why_ the anthem is played, only _when_ the anthem is played. I’m curious as to how it’s played. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/48 "2017-09-29T23:26:40Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Can I ask two questions on behalf of the rest of the world? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at schools and colleges? > > Why the fuck is anyone playing national anthems at non-international sports events? > > It’s not like you anyone forget where they are, you have flags waving every which way all day. If I had to guess I’d say it was a response to the commies; we started doing a lot of showy ritualistic nationalism (and nationalistic theism) because we wanted to prove to everyone were weren’t those godless commies. This is, however, just a guess; I am not actually that good at the whole ‘history’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/49 "2017-09-29T23:32:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m curious as to how it’s played. I would assume the marching band plays it. That’s how it always was in my high school games, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/50 "2017-09-29T23:34:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I would assume the marching band plays it. That’s how it always was in my high school games, anyway. I was thinking kazoo. Well, hoping. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/51 "2017-09-30T01:54:14Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Not in a public school, no. Private schools - up to the school. As long as the government isn’t doing the abuse, then it is okay? > [@octopus](#): > > I think forcing people to participate in rituals or produce specific content is a bad idea. How many kids are dragged to church really want to do that? What protects them from those far more harmful rituals? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/52 "2017-09-30T02:05:56Z")
My comment on the Supreme Court rulings on schools not applying to issues OUTSIDE of schools was directed toward those who took the OP’s original issue, which pertained to schools and students, and applying it to the NFL and more general situations. See, for instance, post #19. I rather like the idea of playing the National Anthem on kazoos. I don’t sing it because I can’t hit the high notes–or even the low notes–but if everyone used kazoos, it might not matter how off-key we are. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/53 "2017-09-30T08:14:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [BBC News article from yesterday](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41419906) gives a pretty good account of the overall situation. It s interesting to contrast this with white middle class flag burning in the 60s - tat being in response to a draft for serving in the same military that is now apparently “revered”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/54 "2017-09-30T12:49:55Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It s interesting to contrast this with white middle class flag burning in the 60s - tat being in response to a draft for serving in the same military that is now apparently “revered”. Yea. Different people at different times have different reactions to different things. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/55 "2017-09-30T13:41:52Z")
Oh I see, playing dumb on purpose. That’s … i don’t know what it is. Immature? Sad? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/56 "2017-09-30T14:12:22Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Two points: > > 1. The Supreme Court rightly treats schools somewhat differently than it does public venues, citing schools’ needs for “maintaining an environment in which learning can take place.” (_New Jersey_ v. _TLO_) Applying court decisions involving schools to incidents in other venues proves nothing. > > 2. In answer to the question about why schools play the National Anthem, it’s typically played at school-sponsored sporting events and is sometimes played at school assemblies. Except that in both Tinker and Barnette, the Supreme Court addressed this specifically with schools in mind. Its been decided. They can’t. (I threatened to sued my daughter’s school with Tinker as a cite. They went from “she can’t do that - the disciplinary action we took was appropriate” to “we are so sorry this ever happened” so fast you could see their head spinning after the administration called the schools attorney) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/57 "2017-09-30T14:18:29Z")
And, here is what I know about us darned “liburals” and the children who protest. (Last night we had three generations of social justice workers from one family at a party). These kids often get it from somewhere other than just the NFL players doing it. Yeah, some of these kids do it cause they see it and that is how they learn to protest. Others learned it at home and at church. Non violent resistance and their civil rights are taught to them over dinner. Teachers who confront a kid for not standing during the pledge should not be surprised when Barnette is cited back at them. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/58 "2017-09-30T14:34:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My two personal favorites from the Barnette decision: > > \*To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. > > If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.\* I wish we had someone on today’s court who writes this well. Or even someone who can appreciate the beauty of such writing. I’m not even sure we have anyone on the court today who understands the principles being described here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/59 "2017-09-30T15:28:32Z")
“It’s an issue that smells of lawsuits” (quoting a line from the OP’s link). Sadly, it appears a whack-down in court may be needed to remind school officials about stupid and unconstitutional attempts to prevent stupid protests. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596/60 "2017-09-30T18:18:19Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Except that in both Tinker and Barnette, the Supreme Court addressed this specifically with schools in mind. Its been decided. They can’t. > > (I threatened to sued my daughter’s school with Tinker as a cite. They went from “she can’t do that - the disciplinary action we took was appropriate” to “we are so sorry this ever happened” so fast you could see their head spinning after the administration called the schools attorney) How far does this principle go? Suppose a pupil was in the habit of calling the administrator “Principal Dickhead.” Is the school unable to punish this behavior because it infringes on the pupil’s right to freedom of speech and expression, that is the pupil wishes to express his belief that the principal is a dickhead? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-controversy-extending-to-schools/797596.md?page=4)