# National anthem / World Cup question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 13, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003 "2010-06-13T12:27:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tetranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@tetranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tetranz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/1 "2010-06-13T12:27:16Z")
If Scotland had made it into the World Cup, would their national anthem played before a game be God save the Queen, same as England? If it is then it would be kind of weird if England and Scotland played each other. Would they play the tune once or twice? ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/2 "2010-06-13T12:31:40Z")
> [@tetranz](#): > > If Scotland had made it into the World Cup, would their national anthem played before a game be God save the Queen, same as England? > > If it is then it would be kind of weird if England and Scotland played each other. Would they play the tune once or twice? Scotland play ‘O Flower of Scotland’ before their international football matches. The rugby team just started using it as well, although previously they used ‘Scotland the Brave’ as there is no official Scottish national anthem. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/3 "2010-06-13T12:38:18Z")
The Scots have their own I think. Certainly in Rugby the Welsh have Land of my Fathers. If it was the same anthem it would be played twice, as when England played Lichenstein which has the same national anthme as England (well, same tune, different words). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/4 "2010-06-13T12:44:04Z")
Northern Ireland still use God Save the Queen for football internationals - when they play England the anthem is played once, representing both teams. That’s different from the Lichtenstein situation, where it’s a different anthem that happens to have the same tune. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/5 "2010-06-13T12:45:23Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The Scots have their own I think. Certainly in Rugby the Welsh have Land of my Fathers. If it was the same anthem it would be played twice, as when England played Lichenstein which has the same national anthme as England (well, same tune, different words). No, it is true it was played twice when Northern Ireland played Liechtenstein, but when England play Northern Ireland the anthem is played only once. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/6 "2010-06-13T12:47:24Z")
> [@Drew\_Kit](#): > > Scotland play ‘O Flower of Scotland’ before their international football matches. The rugby team just started using it as well, although previously they used ‘Scotland the Brave’ as there is no official Scottish national anthem. I attended rugby internationals at Murrayfield throughout the 80s. I think the national anthem for Scotland throughout that time was always God Save the Queen, Flower of Scotland first being used for the grand slam decider against England in 1990. The football team used Scotland the Brave at that time - I don’t think it was ever used by the rugby team but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/7 "2010-06-13T13:44:33Z")
The Irish rugby team (there’s only one, covering both the Republic and the northern province) have two national anthems when they play. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/8 "2010-06-13T13:49:12Z")
> [@Scheidt-Hoch](#): > > I attended rugby internationals at Murrayfield throughout the 80s. I think the national anthem for Scotland throughout that time was always God Save the Queen, Flower of Scotland first being used for the grand slam decider against England in 1990. The football team used Scotland the Brave at that time - I don’t think it was ever used by the rugby team but I could be wrong. It was the athletics competitors who used Scotland the Brave, excuse my mistake. By 1990 ‘Flower of Scotland’ for the rugby team during the Five Nations. During the '80’s, was ‘God Save The Queen’ played twice when England and Scotland played rugby? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/9 "2010-06-13T14:01:33Z")
> [@Drew\_Kit](#): > > It was the athletics competitors who used Scotland the Brave, excuse my mistake. By 1990 ‘Flower of Scotland’ for the rugby team during the Five Nations. During the '80’s, was ‘God Save The Queen’ played twice when England and Scotland played rugby? No. When we played France it sometimes felt like many Scots put more energy into singing Le Marseillaise than our own one (at least I did!). ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/10 "2010-06-13T14:22:08Z")
I kind of miss Scotland the Brave. A jolly but stirring patriotic tune, like the Marseillaise. It always used to be Flower of Scotland = rugby, Scotland the Brave = football. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/11 "2010-06-13T14:49:41Z")
Scotland the Brave is livelier, Flower of Scotland is more of a dirge, but maybe it’s appropriate we have a dirge as an anthem. Anything is more appropriate than ‘God Save the Queen’. In Argentina in 1978, ‘God Save the Queen’ was played before Scottish international football matches. So as in previous England-Scotland games Scots would have to have sang the “Rebellious Scots to crush” verse. Spain in 1982 was the first time ‘Scotland the Brave’ was used, although Thatcher tried to block it. 1997 ‘Flower of Scotland’ was adopted by the SFA. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/12 "2010-06-13T15:02:40Z")
> [@Drew\_Kit](#): > > Spain in 1982 was the first time ‘Scotland the Brave’ was used That surprises me. I associate that tune with the annual “home international” football tournament that was once a fairly big deal (a mini-tournament between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). My memory is that they always played “Scotland the Brave” before the games involving Scotland, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/13 "2010-06-13T15:10:01Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > That surprises me. I associate that tune with the annual “home international” football tournament that was once a fairly big deal (a mini-tournament between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). My memory is that they always played “Scotland the Brave” before the games involving Scotland, but I could be wrong. Spain 1982 versus Brazil was the first time ‘God Save the Queen’ wasn’t played before a Scotland international match, but may be that only for matches played outside of the UK. > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/14 "2010-06-13T15:24:29Z")
OK. So not so much “Thatcher tried to block it”, more “some civil servant raised an eyebrow, government ministers looked at it but concluded that it was none of their business, and the PM probably never even heard about it”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/15 "2010-06-13T15:41:09Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I kind of miss Scotland the Brave. A jolly but stirring patriotic tune, like the Marseillaise. It always used to be Flower of Scotland = rugby, Scotland the Brave = football. As I say, Flower of Scotland only became the rugby anthem in 1990. Before then, the song was sung by fans at Scottish **football** matches during the game (as it still is). I was at most of the games at Murrayfield during the 1980s and Flower of Scotland was never sung there. So in short, football fans adopted FoS in the 1970s, the SRU started to use it officially in 1990, and subsequently the SFA also started to use it officially. I’m not sure where this idea arose that rugby fans sung it before football fans did. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/16 "2010-06-13T16:38:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The Irish rugby team (there’s only one, covering both the Republic and the northern province) have two national anthems when they play. According to Wikipedia, [Ireland’s Call](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland%27s_Call) is sung instead of an anthem for games outside the Republic of Ireland, while for games played in the Republic Ireland’s Call and the Irish National anthem are both sung. ---
**Author:** ![kim\_jung\_il](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/54ee81/32.png) [@kim\_jung\_il](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kim_jung_il)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/17 "2010-06-14T06:24:25Z")
England use God Save the Queen as their anthem, but strictly speaking, this is the anthem of the UK and not England. Scotland don’t have an official anthem either, and used to use Scotland the Brave. Nowadays, Flower of Scotland is used. Northern Ireland also, do not have a national anthem. They use the British anthem, God Save the Queen. I don’t know the name of the song, but Wales use an unofficial anthem. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/18 "2010-06-14T07:57:40Z")
Welsh anthem, which I believe is “official” in the sense of being accepted for use at formal Welsh national events, is [“Land of our Fathers”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kUnCwV3AYE) (\*Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau \*). ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/19 "2010-06-14T10:58:56Z")
> [@Drew\_Kit](#): > > So as in previous England-Scotland games Scots would have to have sang the “Rebellious Scots to crush” verse. No they wouldn’t. The ‘Rebellious Scots to crush’ verse is no more part of it as the National Anthem than any of the other numerous variants in use in the eighteenth century but never used once the song acquired its semi-official status. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthem-world-cup-question/543003/20 "2010-06-14T17:04:00Z")
For that matter, the “rebellious Scots” line would be a stanza or two farther along than the duration of the song as typically performed. When I’ve heard it, usually only the first stanza is sung; sometimes the first and third: \*God save our gracious Queen, Long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen: Send her victorious, Happy and glorious, Long to reign over us: God save the Queen. O Lord, our God, arise, Scatter her enemies, And make them fall. Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks, On Thee our hopes we fix, God save us all. Thy choicest gifts in store, On her be pleased to pour; Long may she reign: May she defend our laws, And ever give us cause To sing with heart and voice God save the Queen!\* According to Wiki, “Northern Ireland uses ‘God Save the Queen’ as its national anthem, but uses ‘Londonderry Air’ (‘Danny Boy’) as its anthem for the Commonwealth Games.”