# National Anthems too militaristic (esp. USA, UK, Irish)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 7, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096 "2008-08-07T00:06:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/1 "2008-08-07T00:06:32Z")
USA: > [@](#): > > O! say can you see by the dawn’s early light > What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming. > Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight, > O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming. > And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air, > Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. > Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? What’s with all the rockets and bombs? And the notion that combat is _gallant_ instead of an evil to be avoided at all costs. UK (2nd verse): > [@](#): > > O Lord, our God, arise, > Scatter her enemies, > And make them fall. > Confound their politics, > Frustrate their knavish tricks, > On Thee our hopes we fix, > God save us all. How about, instead of scattering her enemies and frustrating their knavish tricks, she try to come to some understanding with them so that all concerned can live in peace and harmony? And the worst of all, Ireland (3rd verse): > [@](#): > > Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale! > The long-watched day is breaking > The serried ranks of Inisfail > Shall set the tyrant quaking > Our camp fires now are burning low > See in the east a silv’ry glow > Out yonder waits the Saxon foe > So chant a soldier’s song Out and out violent. And unlike the other two _actually names a specific foe_ - the “saxon” - as if that is to be the foe for all time to come. It would be like the UK anthem naming “the hun” because there have been a couple of wars with them in the past. What’s the problem with being more optimistic and hoping for a better time ahead when traditional foes are no longer foes? Likewise Flower of Scotland: > [@](#): > > O Flower of Scotland, > When will we see, > Your like again, > That fought and died for, > Your wee bit Hill and Glen, > And stood against him, > Proud Edward’s Army, > And sent him homeward, > Tae think again. The original Australian (before they changed it) > [@](#): > > Should foreign foe e’er sight our coast, > Or dare a foot to land, > We’ll rouse to arms like sires of yore, > To guard our native strand; I started reading Egypt’s and had high hopes but then after several verses of how nice Egypt is, we get this: > [@](#): > > Egypt, land of bounties > You ruled with ancient glory > My purpose is to repel the enemy > And of God I rely My _purpose_ is to repel the enemy? Shouldn’t your purpose be not to have any enemies. I despair. The lunatics are in charge of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/2 "2008-08-07T00:14:10Z")
And the wussies are pretending to be judges of historical music. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/3 "2008-08-07T00:14:21Z")
You are a Guest, so I will refrain from replying as I want to, which would be to drag this straight to the Pit. My suggestion is that you go back to eating your tofu and hugging your tree, and let the adults handle things. M,kay? ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/4 "2008-08-07T00:27:05Z")
It’s nothing to do with historical music. Historical music is nice. I don’t understand why countries feel the need to “big up” their fighting prowess in their anthems. And Silenius feel free to say what you want, I can handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/5 "2008-08-07T00:33:06Z")
Like it or not, most countries were either founded as a result of violent upheaval, or at least have defended themselves against invasion by, you know, _enemies_. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/6 "2008-08-07T00:34:29Z")
[QUOTE=mutantmoose] I don’t understand why countries feel the need to “big up” their fighting prowess in their anthems. [/QUOTE] In some cases surely it’s because the anthem grew out of a revolutionary experience (eg France, the USA)? ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/7 "2008-08-07T00:40:00Z")
I’ve no problem with revolutionary music or rebel songs \* before or during the actual revolution\* but once you’ve had the revolution, shouldn’t you be thinking about moving on? ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/8 "2008-08-07T00:45:17Z")
Combat is “an evil to be avoided at all costs”? Tell that to the soldiers that fought the Axis during WWII. The soldiers who fought in the Revolutionary War and every other war for freedom. The Irish who fought against the occupying forces. There is a reason for war. It’s not always just, but are you supposed to allow tyranny because fighting and dying for a cause is “an evil to be avoided at all costs”? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/9 "2008-08-07T00:47:13Z")
You’re very young, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/10 "2008-08-07T01:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=mutantmoose] It’s nothing to do with historical music. [/quote] It has quite a lot to do with historical music and historical sentiments; most anthems aren’t all that recent, and some may appear a little anachronistic as a result. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > A national anthem is a generally patriotic musical composition that evokes and eulogizes the history, traditions and struggles of its people… [they] rose to prominence in Europe during the nineteenth century; the oldest national anthem is “Het Wilhelmus”, the Dutch national anthem, written between 1568 and 1572 during the Dutch Revolt… “God Save the Queen”, the national anthem of England, was first performed in 1745 under the title “God Save the King”… During the rise of the nation-state in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, most remaining nations adopted an anthem upon attaining nationhood. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > I don’t understand why countries feel the need to “big up” their fighting prowess in their anthems. Most of the examples you gave are more about stating a grim determination to defend the native land (against real or hypothetical invaders), rather than a generic “bigging up” of military might… and if I recall correctly, the 2nd verse of God Save the Queen is very rarely used these days. 🙂 Also, if you are going to assert that some Anthems _are_ too militaristic, it’s no fair using the pre-changed Aussie one as a cite, is it? ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/11 "2008-08-07T01:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=mutantmoose] It’s nothing to do with historical music. Historical music is nice. I don’t understand why countries feel the need to “big up” their fighting prowess in their anthems. [/QUOTE] The US anthem isn’t bragging about fighting prowess. the bombs and rockets were being fired at the americans, not by them. Maybe you don’t see the distinction, but the song is about the resolve of the besieged americans, not a celebration of shock and awe. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/12 "2008-08-07T01:25:03Z")
Combat “evil?” The notion that this is a default of some sort shows that the OP is very young, very sheltered, and is likely to come to a bad end. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. And the notion that a country or a society could continue to exist without the gallant service of rough people willing to do rough things is naive to the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/13 "2008-08-07T01:26:04Z")
[QUOTE=mutantmoose] What’s with all the rockets and bombs? And the notion that combat is _gallant_ instead of an evil to be avoided at all costs. [/QUOTE] Oh, and can’t pass this one up… you do know that the [Star Spangled Banner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Spangled_Banner) is about the successful \*\*defence \*\*(or should I say, in deference to the US Dopers, _defense_) of Fort McHenry against British navy ships during the War of 1812? The rockets and bombs being what the fleet lobbed at the fort for over 24 hours. And in the morning the defenders raised a large flag, showing that they were undefeated, inspiring Francis Scott Key to write the “Defence of Fort McHenry” which was later set to music and became the US anthem. _Gallant_ may mean “spirited” or “brave”, and a brave defence doesn’t seem to me to be automatically oxymoronic. > [@Star Spangled Banner](#): > > O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand > Between their loved home and the war’s desolation! > Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land > Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/14 "2008-08-07T01:48:54Z")
Violent national anthems are the best. I have the SDMB to thank for educating me about “Kong Christian” (officially a _royal_ anthem), the bloodiest one out there. > [@](#): > > ``` > King Christian stood by the lofty mast > In mist and smoke; > His sword was hammering so fast, > Through Gothic helm and brain it passed > > ``` You neglected La Marseillaise, which mentions the “bloody standard.” “Men of Harlech,” one of those “should-be” anthems, mentions the Saxon foemen too. That’s because the Saxons were generally assholes. Peaceful anthems are mostly boring. “Advance Australia Fair”? Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/15 "2008-08-07T01:52:21Z")
Those three aren’t squat for militarism if you compare it to La Marsellaise. > **[La Marseillaise](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marseillaise)** > > "La Marseillaise"\[a\] is the national anthem of France. The song was written in 1792 by Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle in Strasbourg after the declaration of war by France against Austria, and was originally titled "Chant de guerre pour l'Armée du Rhin"\[b\] ("War Song for the Army of the Rhine"). > The French National Convention adopted it as the First Republic's anthem in 1795. The song acquired its nickname after being sung in Paris by volunteers from Marseille marching to the capital. The song i... The refrain is (translated into English): To arms, citizens! Form your battalions! Let’s march, let’s march! May a tainted blood Soak our furrows! To arms, citizens! Let us form our battalions! Let us march, let us march! May their tainted blood Soak our furrows! ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/16 "2008-08-07T01:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=thelurkinghorror] You neglected La Marseillaise, which mentions the “bloody standard.” [/QUOTE] You forgot “_May their tainted blood, Soak our furrows!_” 🙂 \*I see **Bump** beat me to it. \* 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/17 "2008-08-07T02:08:19Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] Like it or not, most countries were either founded as a result of violent upheaval, or at least have defended themselves against invasion by, you know, _enemies_. [/QUOTE] For unyeilding selfishness, how about the [Cat National Anthem?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JuVHCJVYf4) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/18 "2008-08-07T03:14:43Z")
The Cat National Anthem is not violent. It doesn’t need to be. If another country threatens Catonia’s sovereignty, they just threaten to tie the president to a chair and play their anthem nonstop until the president is a gibbering mess or the other country backs down. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/19 "2008-08-07T03:25:53Z")
I’m not young, I just haven’t had all my hope and optimism ground out of me yet. I still look for a brighter dawn eg: > [@](#): > > Combat “evil?” The notion that this is a default of some sort shows that the OP is very young, very sheltered, and is likely to come to a bad end. Yes combat is evil. Do you think that combat is good and should be sought out wherever possible? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096/20 "2008-08-07T03:35:02Z")
I guess it’s a good thing nobody ever sings all four verses of the [Star-Spangled Banner](http://www.nps.gov/archive/fomc/tguide/Lesson10a.htm) anymore. Someone already quoted from verse four, but the intermediate verses includes such gems as _And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion A home and a country should leave us no more? Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps pollution._ And bear in mind this is the _British_ we’re talking about, whom these days we actually quite like. God only knows what the song would say if it were about the _Nazis_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-anthems-too-militaristic-esp-usa-uk-irish/459096.md?page=2)