# National Day of PRAYER and Rememberance **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683 "2005-09-08T18:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/241 "2005-09-13T16:11:31Z")
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/242 "2005-09-13T16:13:54Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That’s true. You’re not obligated to do so. > > However, religious people might take such disrespect pretty personally. > > Myself, I deal with people of all different faiths, as well as atheists and agnostics. And I prefer to use a very different formulaton: > > I respect your faith, or your beliefs. That doesn’t mean I believe in it or follow it. The fact that the president wastes time and money harping on it is disrespectful to his constituents. Even the ones that believe in his brand of religion. His job is to govern; not lead the nation in prayer. It should be offensive to anyone who pays taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/243 "2005-09-13T16:22:58Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Well, let’s put it thusly. If I were to preface something I had to say about gay marriage with some purple prose about what I think about two fags who want to dress one of them up in nine yards of white lace so they can trip up the aisle and fantasise that this legitimises their ass-fuckery, I don’t think anything I then said would make me look good. > > Trivialising pretty much every religious person’s faith by talking about “what the fuck imaginary friend you believe in” is sort of the same thing. It’s not the same thing at all. For starters, a drag wedding doesn’t cost the taxpayers anything. It doesn’t have authority over anything or hold a leadership role for anyone. Come up with a legitimate reason for the president to proclaim a day of prayer in a secular nation. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/244 "2005-09-13T16:39:05Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s not the same thing at all. For starters, a drag wedding doesn’t cost the taxpayers anything. It doesn’t have authority over anything or hold a leadership role for anyone. Come up with a legitimate reason for the president to proclaim a day of prayer in a secular nation. How does Bush asking people to pray for the Katrina victims cost the taxpayers anything? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/245 "2005-09-13T16:42:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion… And what “establishment of religion” means is an issue for the courts. This action (a) isn’t Congress; (b) isn’t an establishment; © isn’t law; and (d) is strikingly simialr to issues that have been reviewed by the courts and found permissible. So… can we see, “Establishment of religion?” BZZZZT! Sorry, that’s one strike. Two more and it gives your opponents, the Not-Insane Family, a chance to steal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/246 "2005-09-13T16:44:40Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The fact that the president wastes time and money harping on it is disrespectful to his constituents. Even the ones that believe in his brand of religion. His job is to govern; not lead the nation in prayer. It should be offensive to anyone who pays taxes. But it isn’t. Many people who pay taxes are NOT offended. In fact, they like it. So… too bad. You think it should be offensive, but to many, it isn’t. So he will keep doing it. As did the previous President. As will the next. And the next. And the next. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/247 "2005-09-13T16:52:04Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The only intolerance I see in this scenario is religious assholes being unable to grasp the idea that the rest of the country doesn’t need to know what the fuck ridiculous imaginary friend you believe in. If you want to believe it, have at it, dream boy. But the president’s job is to lead the country…not lead us in prayer. Your fuckin’ churches are supposed to take care of that. I don’t give a shit if he mentions it once a year. He’s already doing a shitty job and maybe if he concentrated more on government and less on public announcements of his godliness, we wouldn’t be in the sorry shape we’re in today. Would you pay him to sell ice cream cones? Well, they have exactly as much relevance to governing the country as prayer. Get a fucking clue. > > Dumb fuck. So, you know how when we have a thread about Jack Chick or Fred Phelps, there’s always at least one poster who points out that not all Christians are like that? I hope y’all remember the same goes for atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/248 "2005-09-13T16:53:53Z")
Just because you take offense, **Kalhoun** and **Diogenes** , doesn’t mean anything illegal has been done, or that you’ve been substantially harmed in any meaningful way. Once again, not all bad things are unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/249 "2005-09-13T16:57:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you know how when we have a thread about Jack Chick or Fred Phelps, there’s always at least one poster who points out that not all Christians are like that? I hope y’all remember the same goes for atheists. **Eve** has already called Madalyn Murray O’Hair the Jack Chick of atheism. That would make **Kalhoun** its Fred Phelps, I suppose. **Diogenes** could easily be its Pat Robertson. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/250 "2005-09-13T17:01:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And what “establishment of religion” means is an issue for the courts. This action (a) isn’t Congress; (b) isn’t an establishment; (c) isn’t law; and (d) is strikingly simialr to issues that have been reviewed by the courts and found permissible. > > So… can we see, “Establishment of religion?” BZZZZT! Sorry, that’s one strike. Two more and it gives your opponents, the Not-Insane Family, a chance to steal. Singling out the "congress’ part is disingenuous and you know it. The Courts have ruled consistently that the Establishment Clause applies to the entire government and includes any official endorsement of any particular religious belief. The government is not allowed to make an official declaration about whether gods exist or don’t exist. As I said before, declaring a “Day of Prayer” is _arguably_ an official endorsement of theism Somehow, I think if the President were to declare an official “Day of Animal Sacrifice” some of the people defending the DOP might have a different reaction. Anyway, my objection is not so much that it’s illegal (I could continue to argue that but I would be pissing against the wind) but that it’s in bad taste, that it’s redundant and that it’s functionally useless in actually helping hurricane victims. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/251 "2005-09-13T17:07:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > **Eve** has already called Madalyn Murray O’Hair the Jack Chick of atheism. That would make **Kalhoun** its Fred Phelps, I suppose. > > **Diogenes** could easily be its Pat Robertson. 1. I’m not an atheist, I’m an agnostic. 2. In what way, shape or form have I ever tried to infringe or hamper anyone else’s right to free practice of religion? I’ve said this a million times on this board, but I’ll say it again. I am married to a practicing Catholic. My children have both been baptized in the Church. I participated in their ceremonies. My oldest daughter goes to a Catholic school and my wife takes her to mass every sunday. I am not remotely anti-Christian. I just don’t want the government telling which religious beliefs are legitimate and which ones aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/252 "2005-09-13T17:19:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I just don’t want the government telling which religious beliefs are legitimate and which ones aren’t. Which the government is not doing in this case, as a matter of law. Therefore, you do seem to be overreacting and playing loose with the facts, a condition not unknown to a certain TV preacher from Virginia Beach. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/253 "2005-09-13T17:25:15Z")
An official declaration for a Day of Prayer is equal to an official declaration that there is anything to pray to. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/254 "2005-09-13T17:27:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **Apos** : Just because one of the writers thought “X” does not mean that the text means “X”. If you want to search for the original meaning (a fruitless task if ever there was one) you’d have to gather info on what “X” meant to every person who voted for the consitution, not just some guy who wrote it. In the end, all we’re left with that we can be sure everyone understood is what is actually in the text. And the text on this subject is vague. No doubt it is vague for a very good reason-- no one could agree on anything more specific. Dunno: Madison seemed to be very clear on what that vague language meant. If you can’t trust one of the founders to understand what their own words mean, then I question the sincerity of those who claim original meaning is a good guide to anything. It’s just as plausible that the test really does mean what Madison thought, and that activists basically established a new precedent afterwards (which seems more in line with the historical progression anyway). Not that I’m really in favor of one form of interpretation or another, but I do find the idea that Madison’s own interpretation could rightly be described as some insane activist attempt to add things to the BoR that aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/255 "2005-09-13T17:39:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Singling out the "congress’ part is disingenuous and you know it. The Courts have ruled consistently that the Establishment Clause applies to the entire government and includes any official endorsement of any particular religious belief. The government is not allowed to make an official declaration about whether gods exist or don’t exist. As I said before, declaring a “Day of Prayer” is _arguably_ an official endorsement of theism Somehow, I think if the President were to declare an official “Day of Animal Sacrifice” some of the people defending the DOP might have a different reaction. If you’re relying on the courts for a determination of who the Clause applies to, doesn’t it make sense to rely on them for what conduct it applies to? > [@](#): > > Anyway, my objection is not so much that it’s illegal (I could continue to argue that but I would be pissing against the wind) but that it’s in bad taste, that it’s redundant and that it’s functionally useless in actually helping hurricane victims. 1. Bad taste: to you. Not to many others. 2. Redundant: Agreed. 3. Functionally useless: Not sure I agree. I think prayer is effacacious. But I can’t prove it. In any event, it makes people feel better, so it has some salubrious effect. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/256 "2005-09-13T17:51:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Bad taste: to you. Not to many others. > 2. Redundant: Agreed. > 3. Functionally useless: Not sure I agree. I think prayer is effacacious. But I can’t prove it. In any event, it makes people feel better, so it has some salubrious effect. I disagree with you and **Diogenes** on point 2, for the simple reason that solitary prayer and prayer in a group or gathering are different things, undertaken for different purposes. Praying with others helps to forge a sense of community and a shared purpose within that community. That is, I believe, the driving force behind these proclamations. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/257 "2005-09-13T17:54:36Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Praying with others helps to forge a sense of community and a shared purpose within that community. That is, I believe, the driving force behind these proclamations. Meanwhile excluding those who don’t believe in prayer from the community. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/258 "2005-09-13T17:59:40Z")
Not at all. I don’t cede my place in my community be choosing not to participate in all of its ceremonies and events. Moreover, the events of this day aren’t exclusionary. Someone might choose to participate in ways that mark remembrance without prayer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/259 "2005-09-13T18:06:43Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Dunno: Madison seemed to be very clear on what that vague language meant. If you can’t trust one of the founders to understand what their own words mean, then I question the sincerity of those who claim original meaning is a good guide to anything. It’s just as plausible that the test really does mean what Madison thought, and that activists basically established a new precedent afterwards (which seems more in line with the historical progression anyway). Not that I’m really in favor of one form of interpretation or another, but I do find the idea that Madison’s own interpretation could rightly be described as some insane activist attempt to add things to the BoR that aren’t there. I don’t question the sincerity of originalists, but I do question their wisdom. As I said before, to understand original intent, one must understand what ALL the legislstors’ intent was, not just the writer. If the writer meant “x”, but the other folks voting thought “y”, that doesn’t mean the piece of legislation meant “x”. That’s the point I was trying to make. Which particular originalists are you talking about, btw? None of the members of the SCOTUS are originalists, and I don’t know of any posters to this board who are either. I suspect you are confusing texutualists with originalists. It’s a common mistake-- one that I’ve been guilty of making on more than one occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/260 "2005-09-13T18:10:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you’re relying on the courts for a determination of who the Clause applies to, doesn’t it make sense to rely on them for what conduct it applies to? Heh, I was waiting for that one. I saw your clever set-up and saw that, sadly, no one had been baited into responding to the point. I was about to post about how clever you were and how it was too bad no one had picked up on it, but then I saw Diog’s last post and decided to wait and see where you went with it. Bravo! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=14)