# National Day of PRAYER and Rememberance **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683 "2005-09-08T18:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/281 "2005-09-13T20:50:28Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > Wait, did I miss someone saying atheists are “persecuted”? I know _I_ never said that. I thought there was something about forcing school children to pray. This was the persecution I meant. I never winessed anyone persecuted by being forced to pray. Just my experience. > [@](#): > > A private hospital is free to do what they like. We’re talking about _public_ schools here, so seperation of church and state applies. I have no problem with anyone founding a religious hospital if they want to. Merely an anecdote trying to describe how being exposed to religion didn’t cause my head to spin around or spew pea soup. > [@](#): > > But what’s your point? Anything’s O.K. as long as it doesn’t “ruin your life”? It’s just not something that warrants getting all worked up about to me… > [@](#): > > I just don’t get that whole attitude that you can’t even _talk_ about something without being branded as a “whiner”. _Especially_ when you KNOW that the other side would whine twice as much if the tables were turned. …unlike some. > [@](#): > > I tune out the Muzak too, but it’d be even better if it wasn’t playing at all. There ya go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/282 "2005-09-13T20:57:21Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > I thought there was something about forcing school children to pray. This was the persecution I meant. I never winessed anyone persecuted by being forced to pray. Just my experience. I think persecution is too strong a word. You seem to be putting words in my mouth and then castigating me for the word that _you_ used. What gives? > [@](#): > > It’s just not something that warrants getting all worked up about to me… Who’s worked up? You? Shodan and Miller seem the most worked up, IMO. Shodan’s hurling invectives like there’s no tomorrow. > [@](#): > > …unlike some. 😕 > [@](#): > > There ya go. O.K., we agree. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/283 "2005-09-13T21:13:06Z")
I’d love to see how all of you would react if the president wanted to lead you in something inappropriate _that you didn’t believe in_. What if he said Wednesday was going to be the day we wave the crystal over New Orleans and if it swings North/South, we can be assured that they’ll straighten themselves out on their own, but if it swings East/West, well…we’re going to have to send in more money and troops because things won’t be able to heal themselves. Leading us in prayer is the same thing. Silly and inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/284 "2005-09-13T21:18:59Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > Not the same thing, my friend. The free exchange of ideas and beliefs in a public forum is not the same at all as a public official forcing beliefs on a captive audience. Fallacy of prejudicial language. There’s no “forcing” of beliefs on a “captive” audience under discussion. A presidential proclamation forces no one to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/285 "2005-09-13T21:19:33Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Again, (read slowly and follow along with your finger if you must). we’re not trying to get you to stop with the praying. We are asking that the president at least outwardly pretend he believes in separation of church and state by refraining from leading the country in prayer. I understand exactly what you want. The thing is, you can’t have it. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > It most certainly does do harm. Every time he does it, it brings us closer to the very thing our founding fathers ran away from. You mean founding fathers like George Washington, Abe Lincoln, and so forth? You are claiming that they “ran away from” the notion of a National Day of Prayer? You haven’t been paying attention, have you? > [@Kalhoun](#): > > Oh, there’s where you’re wrong. You can believe whatever you want to believe (snicker). All I’m saying is that it’s improper and dangerous to have POTUS lead our secular nation in prayer. I know what you are saying. The problem is, what you are saying is stupid. In this context, “improper” doesn’t mean anything besides “I don’t like it”. That is an unworkable definition of “improper”. Because you don’t have any right to stop things just because you don’t like them. The Constitution guarantees the rights of the majority, too. We have the right to pray. The President has the right to issue a call to voluntary prayer. It "neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg, and does not create an establishment of religion. Therefore, efforts to stop it are an interference with the other half of the freedom of religion clause, which is “the free exercise thereof”. That half is just as important as the first, and just as worth of protection. Accordingly, shut your yap. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > We’re talking about _choice_ in religion, versus _orientation_ with regard to homosexuals. Nope, wrong again. Prayer is voluntary behavior; marriage is voluntary behavior. Prayer is offensive to some, therefore you want to prevent it as a public act. Gay marriage is offensive to some, therefore you want to prevent that as a public act. Right? Just the knowledge that a public official is doing something that some portion of the public finds offensive is enough that the behavior ought to be outlawed. Yes? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/286 "2005-09-13T21:21:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’d love to see how all of you would react if the president wanted to lead you in something inappropriate _that you didn’t believe in_. What if he said Wednesday was going to be the day we wave the crystal over New Orleans and if it swings North/South, we can be assured that they’ll straighten themselves out on their own, but if it swings East/West, well…we’re going to have to send in more money and troops because things won’t be able to heal themselves. Leading us in prayer is the same thing. Silly and inappropriate. Then… I would ignore him. I know… it’s shocking. Probably what would actually happen is I’d be seized with angst and paralyzed with ennui, stifled with the repression of my beliefs and wholly unable to function for days or weeks on end. I’m thinking I’d just go with “ignore,” though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/287 "2005-09-13T21:24:20Z")
Me? I’m not worked up in the slightest. I’m a little weary of people deigning to speak on my behalf, is all. You’re making a lot of sweeping statements about what “atheists” feel and/or think, and so far, none of them have applied to me, or to any atheist I know IRL. That sort of thing makes me feel snippy, especially when I can compare it to groups that face genuine discrimination and ostracism on an institutional level. You want me to give a shit that the president thinks prayer is keen? Please. Come back when he starts trying to change the constution to keep atheists from getting married. That’s a genuine complaint. What you’ve got is sour grapes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/288 "2005-09-13T21:25:37Z")
That was addressed to **That New Guy** , in case that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/289 "2005-09-13T21:29:40Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’d love to see how all of you would react if the president wanted to lead you in something inappropriate _that you didn’t believe in_. What if he said Wednesday was going to be the day we wave the crystal over New Orleans and if it swings North/South, we can be assured that they’ll straighten themselves out on their own, but if it swings East/West, well…we’re going to have to send in more money and troops because things won’t be able to heal themselves. Leading us in prayer is the same thing. Silly and inappropriate. Not a very good analogy, I never heard any consequences linked to the day of prayer. It’s not like he is proposing doing anything one way or another based on the outcome of any prayers. A better analogy would be if he said to swing a crystal on Wednesday if you wanted to. I wouldn’t swing any crystals because I wouldn’t want to. And if I saw some crystal swingers, I’d chuckle. A better analogy would be if he said don’t wear any underwear on Wednesday if you don’t want to. Some people already wouldn’t wear any, and nobody would know if you were wearing any or not. Not wearing any wouldn’t hurt anything, or help anything, and nobody would know if you were wearing any or not. People that wanted to wear underwear could with no repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/290 "2005-09-13T21:40:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then… I would ignore him. > > I know… it’s shocking. Probably what would actually happen is I’d be seized with angst and paralyzed with ennui, stifled with the repression of my beliefs and wholly unable to function for days or weeks on end. > > I’m thinking I’d just go with “ignore,” though. There _are_ some though, who seem to be constitutionally incapable of ignoring the president. Perhaps it’d be a nice gesture on Mr. Bush’s part if he declared the second thursday in October “National Sausage Day.” Sausage day has worked out well in Canada and Ireland. Here, it’d give the nontheists something tasty to look forward to, instead of focusing all their energies on the perceived injustice of a minor religious proclamation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/291 "2005-09-13T21:56:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fallacy of prejudicial language. There’s no “forcing” of beliefs on a “captive” audience under discussion. A presidential proclamation forces no one to do anything. You missed a step. An example had been brought up where a school principal makes a general announcement over the PA instructing the students to pray. That’s what we were discussing. It’s an offshoot of the main discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/292 "2005-09-13T21:58:58Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > A better analogy would be if he said don’t wear any underwear on Wednesday if you don’t want to. Some people already wouldn’t wear any, and nobody would know if you were wearing any or not. Not wearing any wouldn’t hurt anything, or help anything, and nobody would know if you were wearing any or not. People that wanted to wear underwear could with no repercussions. That’s not a great analogy either. How about the president declaring a day of asking Satan to help us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/293 "2005-09-13T22:12:39Z")
If you’re looking for an admission that Christians can also be hypersensitive jerks, you’ve got it. So what? How does that excuse atheists being hypersensitive jerks? “He does it too!” isn’t a very good defense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/294 "2005-09-13T22:15:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Me? I’m not worked up in the slightest. I’m a little weary of people deigning to speak on my behalf, is all. You’re making a lot of sweeping statements about what “atheists” feel and/or think, and so far, none of them have applied to me, or to any atheist I know IRL. No, I don’t believe I made any sweeping statements. I believe that _if_ an atheist has an opinion about something, that he ought to be allowed to express that opinion without being shouted down, but I’m pretty sure that I never said that all atheists are of like opinion. > [@](#): > > That sort of thing makes me feel snippy, especially when I can compare it to groups that face genuine discrimination and ostracism on an institutional level. But I never made any such comparison. I think you’re over-reacting. Just because you can come up with _another_ situation that is worse than what we are discussing, shouldn’t bar us from having a discussion. It’s the old “How can you talk about X when Y exists?”, argument. It’s just not relevant. > [@](#): > > You want me to give a shit that the president thinks prayer is keen? Stay current. I was discussing the example given where the principal instructs the students to pray. > [@](#): > > Please. Come back when he starts trying to change the constution to keep atheists from getting married. Again, that would be worse, but that doesn’t mean we should be barred from discussing what we’re discussing. > [@](#): > > That’s a genuine complaint. What you’ve got is sour grapes. “Sour grapes” is when you _fail_ to get something, and consequently rationalize it by saying that thing “probably wasn’t that great anyway.” I don’t think that’s what you mean, is it? I think you’re inflating the importance of the arguments I’m making. Please show me where I ever said that a national day of prayer is as bad or worse than banning atheist marriages. You DO seem to be getting worked up, and what’s worse, it’s over arguments that I never even MADE. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/295 "2005-09-13T22:21:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re looking for an admission that Christians can also be hypersensitive jerks, you’ve got it. So what? How does that excuse atheists being hypersensitive jerks? “He does it too!” isn’t a very good defense. That wasn’t my point. I think that if one of my examples actually happened, if the tables truly were turned, that Christians would have _every right_ to complain, and would do so, rightfully. If a school principal told kids to be atheists, that would be inappropriate, and complaints would be in order. I just think people should be able to see that it works the other way around, too. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/296 "2005-09-13T22:28:56Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Sorry, didn’t mean to skip this. What I mean is does the principal do it during the morning announcments? > > “Good morning, children. Lunch today will be meatloaf and mac 'n cheese. There will be an assembly at 3pm. Also, there is no god. Good day.” > > Does he wait until there’s some kind of tragedy? > > “I’m sure all of you feel very badly for the students who were on bus #918 when it rolled over 7 times and caught fire. However, please note that praying for the injured and their families is a big waste of time because there is no god.” > > Does he just bring it up in conversation with his students? > > “Good to see you, Johnny. Nice new backpack. By the way, god is just a construct for the weak-minded. He doesn’t exist. Have a good day!” > > So I ask again, in what context? OK, September 12, 2001. The Principal: “Children, let us take this opportunity to reflect on why religion, which purports to promote peace and understanding, instead creates an environment in which people kill people of different faiths. Let us hope that people the world over realize that there is no god and never again use an irrational belief system to justify acts of such barbarism. Please join me in singing ‘Oh What a Friend I Have in Darwin’”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/297 "2005-09-13T22:42:15Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > You DO seem to be getting worked up, and what’s worse, it’s over arguments that I never even MADE. Well, I’m really not getting worked up. But it looks like I AM responding to arguments you never made. Sorry about that, I got you confused with some of the other posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/298 "2005-09-13T22:59:32Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > That’s not a great analogy either. How about the president declaring a day of asking Satan to help us. As far as I know he is. There is nothing that says you can’t pray to Satan. Knock yourself out, it’ll be just like South Park! ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/299 "2005-09-13T23:06:45Z")
Okay. I’ve read the thread, and come to some conclusions. First, calling for a day of prayer is a pretty innocuous concatenation of church and state, certainly rooted in the republic’s history and definitely less harmful than, say, declaring intelligent design a scientific theory on a par with darwinian evolution. An openly and avowedly (some might say, loudly) religious president isn’t a constitutional violation. I can see where it might lead reasonable people to suspect hidden violations, such as a bias toward coreligionists when it comes to federal appointments and nominations, but that’s a separate issue that has to be proven separately. Second, I’m having fun trying to figure out exactly what religious tradition friend **Shodan** follows, reconciling it with his treatment of others in this thread. I’d love to get a peek inside his church, at least for the opening prayer: “Dear Lord – go fuck yourself, moron! Regards, your congregants. Amen.” Third, I no longer care if the president turns to prayer, tries to contact space aliens, or orders the GSA to build and install a bat-signal on the White House roof. It’s no worse than creating energy policy through obeisance to Exxon. Fourth, sincerely religious people would do well to remember that their freedom to worship might be better served by a government indifferent to religion, rather than one steeped in its own dogma – our leaders won’t always be coming off _your_ pew, you know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/300 "2005-09-13T23:30:07Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I agree that it’s not proof positive. But it does make a pretty decent first case that it’s not a crazy, untextual reading. At the very least, if one of the major authors of the text and one of the biggest figures around thought the TEXT meant something, then it’s hard to simply dismiss it out of hand as it clearly not saying that. It’s not so much a question of what Madison meant in writing it, but rather that afterwards he maintained that that was what the article actually prohibited. > > Sorry: I meant textualists, not originalists, which definately through that debate in a weird direction. Well, that may very well be what the text meant to him. But how do we know it meant that to others who voted on it and who had a less absolute view of things? If he really wanted it to mean “complete separation”, he should have used that term and then everyone could have voted on that. But he didn’t, and they didn’t. Frankly, I think it unlikely that a separation clause would have survived a vote. But that’s a dfiferent matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=16)