# National Day of PRAYER and Rememberance **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683 "2005-09-08T18:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/301 "2005-09-14T00:55:38Z")
Some people call it “nonestablishment” and some people call it “separation of church and state”. No matter. The way I understand it is, the US gubmint will not establish a state religion or compel anyone to belong to any specific government sanctioned religion. We’re all allowed to worship, or not worship, as we choose. That doesn’t mean our leaders can never make any symbolic gestures (which is what this Day of Prayer and Remembrance is). Nobody is being told which god to pray to, or what church to pray in. There are no god squads out there making sure we all pray. All in all, it’s a pretty harmless gesture. Sure there is freedom of religion, and also freedom from religion. That is what the founders intended. Asking people to pray is not the same as compelling or forcing them to. This is a tempest in a teapot. If anyone wants to get offended or angry, pick on something more important. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/302 "2005-09-14T02:14:41Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, that may very well be what the text meant to him. But how do we know it meant that to others who voted on it and who had a less absolute view of things? If he really wanted it to mean “complete separation”, he should have used that term and then everyone could have voted on that. But he didn’t, and they didn’t. That’s dodging the issue. The issue is not what he intended, but what he thought the language meant. Given that he was able to read the text that way, it becomes hard to sustain the view that it’s some crazy act of activism to read it that way. After all, one of its cheif authors didn’t think it was a crazy extension of the text. It’s not proof of anything, but it certainly puts the shoe on the other foot when it comes time to decide what the text means. Of course, Bricker is probably right on this: in practice, the text NOW means whatever judges have established it means, for good or ill, wrong or right. It’s only a debate in the abstract of discussing the particular philosophies one might use to interpret. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I think it unlikely that a separation clause would have survived a vote. But that’s a dfiferent matter. I don’t know: most of even the very religious founders seemed to understand, far better than many people seem to today, that barring the government from religious practice is the same as reserving it strictly for civil society. Every single thing the government does in an official capacity is an authority taken from the people. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/303 "2005-09-14T03:55:44Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > Did it ever occur to you that, to an atheist, it sounds very nearly as odd for someone to say, “God loves you Johnny. Have a good day!” Hey, feel free to give someone the atheist version of this greeting. Which, I presume, would be…? “Nobody loves you, Johnny. Have a good day!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/304 "2005-09-14T04:01:56Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Because he’s slacking on the job. He’s not doing what he was hired to do. Out of curiosity… What if it had been just declared and named “A National Day of Remembrance”. No word ‘prayer’ in it – just remembrance. Would you also consider that to be slacking on the job? I ask, because the main complaint that set this whole thing off seems to be the name given to it. Just wondering if your objection is only because of the name, or do you find the whole concept of declaring a symbolic “National Day Of (anything)” to be a waste of time? ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/305 "2005-09-14T07:18:49Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Hey, feel free to give someone the atheist version of this greeting. > > Which, I presume, would be…? “Nobody loves you, Johnny. Have a good day!” > > 😃 Nah, I just skip the bullshit and say, “Have a nice day”. I guess the theist version would be, “Your imaginary friend loves you.” 😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/306 "2005-09-14T07:39:19Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > As far as I know he is. There is nothing that says you can’t pray to Satan. Knock yourself out, it’ll be just like South Park! Heh - I was going to congratulate you on a funny joke (of course Bush doesn’t _need_ Satan - he’s got Rove 😃 ), but then I realized you’re probably serious. If that’s the case - you’re wrong. He specifically mentions God (The capital ‘G’ God, no less) in the proclamation. > **[Briefing Room | The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/)** > [@](#): > > I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service. So it’s quite apparent he’s not talking about Satan. In fact, God’s name is invoked 3 times. And please people, I offered this exclusively as evidence against the Duke’s assertion, so don’t take it all out of context and start saying, “Waaaah! Stop whining! You’re worked up! Stop being worked up, you worked-up person you.” 😉 And if you _did_ mean that only as a joke, please disregard. I love Bush jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/307 "2005-09-14T12:16:31Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Out of curiosity… What if it had been just declared and named “A National Day of Remembrance”. No word ‘prayer’ in it – just remembrance. > > Would you also consider that to be slacking on the job? > > I ask, because the main complaint that set this whole thing off seems to be the name given to it. Just wondering if your objection is only because of the name, or do you find the whole concept of declaring a symbolic “National Day Of (anything)” to be a waste of time? Yes, I do…but doing in in the name of gawd tends to put a spin of “ultimate importance” on it…like you’re actually doing something out of necessity. We need to get the situation under control and then figure out “who” we’re remembering. They haven’t even collected all the bodies yet! We are still in the throes of an emergency. His concentration should be on the task at hand. Anyone who prays has already been doing it for two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/308 "2005-09-14T13:03:24Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Yes, I do…but doing in in the name of gawd tends to put a spin of “ultimate importance” on it…like you’re actually doing something out of necessity. We need to get the situation under control and then figure out “who” we’re remembering. They haven’t even collected all the bodies yet! We are still in the throes of an emergency. His concentration should be on the task at hand. Anyone who prays has already been doing it for two weeks. Sophistical. What could Bush usefully accomplish in the time it takes to declare a national day of prayer and remembrance? Precious little. It is elementary to assume that you know this perfectly well, and are therefore advancing it as grounds only because you have already decided that he shouldn’t say “prayer” on the taxpayer’s nickel. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/309 "2005-09-14T13:48:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Sophistical. What could Bush usefully accomplish in the time it takes to declare a national day of prayer and remembrance? Precious little. It is elementary to assume that you know this perfectly well, and are therefore advancing it as grounds only because you have already decided that he shouldn’t say “prayer” on the taxpayer’s nickel. I doubt he said it off the top of his head. They had a meeting to decide how to make the people feel a little better about the colossal screw-up that came down. I don’t believe him to be what most people would term a “good christian”. I believe that he and his guys thought about how to divert attention from the shitstorm that was brewing, and what better way than to invoke an imaginary being to make things better? Certainly takes the heat off the usual suspects, doesn’t it? He could have been working toward something directly related to the relief effort during that time. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/310 "2005-09-14T14:20:05Z")
Actually, your ability to ascribe cynical motives to Bush does not demonstrate that you have accurately described his reasons for calling for a NDOP&R. And would you kindly drop this “imaginary being” crap? No-one’s forcing you to believe in God, Og, Vishnu or anybody else, but your transparent contempt for any religious faith whatever smacks of disrespect for a whole lotta people whom you have yet to show, on independent grounds, to be deluded, ignorant, or stupid. I, personally, as a typical reserved Brit, think that American politicians harp on the Almighty a sight too much, but not necessarily more on this occasion than any other. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/311 "2005-09-14T15:14:10Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Actually, your ability to ascribe cynical motives to Bush does not demonstrate that you have accurately described his reasons for calling for a NDOP&R. > > And would you kindly drop this “imaginary being” crap? No-one’s forcing you to believe in God, Og, Vishnu or anybody else, but your transparent contempt for any religious faith whatever smacks of disrespect for a whole lotta people whom you have yet to show, on independent grounds, to be deluded, ignorant, or stupid. > > I, personally, as a typical reserved Brit, think that American politicians harp on the Almighty a sight too much, but not necessarily more on this occasion than any other. No, I agree…he \*could \* be acting totally out of character and doing something for reasons other than political. I don’t have contempt for people who believe in whatever they believe in on their own time. Hey…it’s a free country. I do, however, feel contempt for those that toss their belief into the political arena, as if it somehow makes them more “American” than a non-believer or use god as a political tool. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/312 "2005-09-14T15:21:38Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, I agree…he \*could \* be acting totally out of character and doing something for reasons other than political. > > I don’t have contempt for people who believe in whatever they believe in on their own time. Hey…it’s a free country. I do, however, feel contempt for those that toss their belief into the political arena, as if it somehow makes them more “American” than a non-believer or use god as a political tool. Then a little less referring to “imaginary beings” would help demonstrate your tolerance. :: shrug :: I’d probably be equally ticked-off if Tony Blair did the same over here. But that’s mostly because I think that Blair is an odious little creep, not because the PM (can’t call him the Head of State; he isn’t) _shouldn’t_ call for prayer and remembrance. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/313 "2005-09-14T15:46:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Then a little less referring to “imaginary beings” would help demonstrate your tolerance. > > :: shrug :: I’d probably be equally ticked-off if Tony Blair did the same over here. But that’s mostly because I think that Blair is an odious little creep, not because the PM (can’t call him the Head of State; he isn’t) _shouldn’t_ call for prayer and remembrance. For me, it’s both. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/314 "2005-09-14T15:52:10Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > OK, September 12, 2001. The Principal: > “Children, let us take this opportunity to reflect on why religion, which purports to promote peace and understanding, instead creates an environment in which people kill people of different faiths. Let us hope that people the world over realize that there is no god and never again use an irrational belief system to justify acts of such barbarism. Please join me in singing ‘Oh What a Friend I Have in Darwin’”. Ah, someone who gets what I was going after. Good example, by the way. I’ll admit it, that would get under my skin. However, there are no laws forbidding his/her saying this, AFAIK. So, he gets to say it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/315 "2005-09-14T18:20:35Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Ah, someone who gets what I was going after. Good example, by the way. Huh? It’s a great example, but what was _my_ example, chopped liver? > [@](#): > > I’ll admit it, that would get under my skin. Well at least you finally admitted it. See, I don’t think that makes you a whiner, or an uptight asshole, or a pussy, or any of the other derogatory names that get heaped on non-religious people who object to the reverse situation. It just makes you a person expressing his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/316 "2005-09-14T18:47:55Z")
> [@The New Guy](#): > > Well at least you finally admitted it. See, I don’t think that makes you a whiner, or an uptight asshole, or a pussy, or any of the other derogatory names that get heaped on non-religious people who object to the reverse situation. It just makes you a person expressing his opinion. Yeah, but if I start complaining about how the principal is wasting my tax dollars in giving this little speech and complaining about how it’s a violation of church and state (which it’s not), then I become a whiner. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/317 "2005-09-14T20:06:53Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Yeah, but if I start complaining about how the principal is wasting my tax dollars in giving this little speech and complaining about how it’s a violation of church and state (which it’s not), then I become a whiner. But if you complain that it’s inappropriate (which it IS) is it a legitimate gripe? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/318 "2005-09-15T11:53:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But if you complain that it’s inappropriate (which it IS) is it a legitimate gripe? Whether or not it’s inappropriate is a subjective call. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/319 "2005-09-15T12:06:44Z")
I remember reading in the New Testement that Christians should always be praying;I do not remember if it was Paul or Jesus, so why should one day be different than another. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/320 "2005-09-15T12:26:15Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I remember reading in the New Testement that Christians should always be praying;I do not remember if it was Paul or Jesus, so why should one day be different than another. > > Monavis True so far as it goes, but by that logic, we should all be loving our neighbour as ourselves 24/7, so charity appeals should be redundant, as we should already be giving to the poor to the best of our ability. Poor fallible human beings that we are, we need the odd heads-up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=17)