# National Day of PRAYER and Rememberance **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683 "2005-09-08T18:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/101 "2005-09-09T14:39:20Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think of prayer as a lack of faith. To me it is like a child who doesn’t believe his parents will care for them so they beg for food and the necessities of life; hoever, if it makes someone feel less afraid it won’t hurt anyone else. Prayer has many uses outside of just asking God for stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/102 "2005-09-09T14:45:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I am suggesting that you are a moron. > No, of course it is not a whoosh. > > The various atheists/agnostics/handstabbers are working themselves into a pink lather over this violation of SOCAS. There is no compulsion or violation involved, and therefore they are idiots. Duh. > > They are also hypocrites because they think Bush a foaming fundamentalist intent on imposing theocracy by declaring a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance - just like those other noted ideologues Washington, Lincoln, and Clinton. > > Like that’s new. > > Regards, > Shodan No, it’s the utter stupidity of the RR corner that think prayer has any effect on solving problems, whether they’re national or personal in nature. And it’s the inherently marginalizing effect that a call to prayer has on those who find it a silly waste of time. I don’t give a fuck whether you pray or not. But to make it sound like an “action item” on the list of shit that needs to be done is nothing short of insulting. Less time campaigning and more time doing your fucking job. Or is that too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/103 "2005-09-09T14:47:55Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Prayer has many uses outside of just asking God for stuff. That’s right. You can add it to leftover chicken for a delicious casserole! It’s also good for quick clean-ups around the house! ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/104 "2005-09-09T15:11:18Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s right. You can add it to leftover chicken for a delicious casserole! It’s also good for quick clean-ups around the house! Now you’re just being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/105 "2005-09-09T15:16:07Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I don’t get this particular semantic quibble (which I’ve seen many times before). So, the language of the First Amendment doesn’t say “separation of church and state”, it says “establishment of religion”. So what? If anything, “no establishment of religion” seems _more_ restrictive of government involvement in religious matters than “separation of church and state”. After all, _no_ one, not even the Christian Reconstructionists, wants to simply merge the church and the state into a single institution. No one is advocating that the Baptism and Christening Division of the National Sacraments Administration of the U.S. Department of Religious Affairs be in charge of sprinkling babies or dunking teenagers (as the case may be). I can easily imagine a case where church and state are “separate” institutions, with parallel civil and ecclesiastical governments, perhaps even multiple denominations, but Christianity is nonetheless “established” as the official religion of the government. In fact, this is exactly what the hard-core true blue theocratic fringe in this country professes to want–church and state institutionally “separate” (though cooperating), with an “establishment” of Christianity and “Biblical law”, including state prosecution of religious crimes. Hell, even the Holy Inquisition practiced “separation of church and state” to that extent–after the Church found you guilty of heresy, they didn’t execute you, because executing people is a power which belongs to the state–so they handed you over to the civil authorities and _they_ executed you. > > If the First Amendment read “Congress shall make no law violating the separation of church and state”, I think you’d have the Religious Right fulminating about how “sure it says ‘separation of church and state’, but there’s nothing in the Constitution against an _establishment of religion_”, and Barry Lynn would be the head of Americans United for Religious Disestablishment, and the actual substance of the debate over the proper relationship of government and religion wouldn’t be a whit different. You have an interesting definition of the word [separate](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Separate). Perhaps we can debate how your definition would win out over how most people would use that term. But let’s apply your definition to the issue at hand: Would the president be allowed to issue a “Day of Prayer…” proclamation? No. And that’s the fallacy of the OP. We don’t have separation of church and state, and while the proclamation does violate that principle, it’s nor relavant from any legal or constitutional standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/106 "2005-09-09T15:18:32Z")
I come to this message board for many reasons, mostly to do with wasting time, but secondarily (okay, quarternarily, at best) to learn about American culture and customs. Now I understand that when the President calls for a national day of prayer and remembrance, it means that _everyone has to pray and remember_. No shilly-shallying around doing either one or the other, or even none, as the case may be. No, it’s 100% compliance or nothing. In the light of this I fully understand how this is a gross violation of the rights of those who believe in no Deity, or a non-traditional Deity, or who are undecided, or whose religious practices (the freedom of which is guaranteed by the Constitution) do not include prayer or anything like it. I do not grok in fullness, but waiting is. My ignorance has been fought today, brightly and with beauty. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/107 "2005-09-09T15:21:10Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Now I understand that when the President calls for a national day of prayer and remembrance, it means that _everyone has to pray and remember_. No shilly-shallying around doing either one or the other, or even none, as the case may be. No, it’s 100% compliance or nothing. No, it isn’t about forcing anything, but instead about endorsing a genre of religion above another genre of religion and/or endorsing a religion at all. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/108 "2005-09-09T15:24:04Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, it isn’t about forcing anything, but instead about endorsing a genre of religion above another genre of religion and/or endorsing a religion at all. No, it isn’t. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/109 "2005-09-09T15:24:37Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No, it isn’t. :rolleyes: Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/110 "2005-09-09T15:38:37Z")
Look, **Scott** , El Presidente _could_ have said: “We call for a national day of prayer and remembrance. But if you don’t pray, for whatever reason, then please feel free not to pray. If you have some other similar religious practice then please feel free to engage in it instead, if you consider it applicable. If you think the whole exercise is a waste of time you could put to better use, well, good for you. And if you have short-term memory issues, then I shan’t address you at this time, because you won’t remember anyway”. But it wouldn’t go down in the book of Pithy And Effective Sayings. Nor would it convey anything that anyone who isn’t professionally sensitive and self-important couldn’t have figured out for theyself. Hence the :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/111 "2005-09-09T15:47:11Z")
I think you are reading a strawman, rather then what has actually been posted. What he has said was > [@](#): > > Scripture says: “Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted.” I call on every American family and the family of America to observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance, honoring the memory of the thousands of victims of these brutal attacks and comforting those who lost loved ones. We will persevere through this national tragedy and personal loss. In time, we will find healing and recovery; and, in the face of all this evil, we remain strong and united, “one Nation under God.” > NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 14, 2001, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001. **I ask that** the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with noontime memorial services, the ringing of bells at that hour, and evening candlelight remembrance vigils. **I encourage** employers to permit their workers time off during the lunch hour to attend the noontime services to pray for our land.\*\* I invite\*\* the people of the world who share our grief to join us in these solemn observances. That is not a person forcing others to pray, but a request. I am not disputing that. However, what he \*\*is \*\* doing is say “Hey, you know what is nice? Prayer.” and that is what I have a problem with. Sure, it may not sound like such a big deal to you, but it is still endorsing prayer/religions invoving prayer, which is a big no-no. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/112 "2005-09-09T15:51:48Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Sure, it may not sound like such a big deal to you, but it is still endorsing prayer/religions invoving prayer, which is a big no-no. Except it’s not a big no-no, because most presidents, including presidents who actually worked on writing the Constitution, like Washington and Madison, issued proclamations of National Days of Prayer. If the first amendment really prohibited doing that, you’d expect them to know it. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/113 "2005-09-09T15:53:37Z")
No, they know it and ignore it, kinda like Chaplins in Congress, the words “Under God” being added in the 50s and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/114 "2005-09-09T16:05:31Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, they know it and ignore it, kinda like Chaplins in Congress, the words “Under God” being added in the 50s and so on. Well who the fuck are we to take the word of Washington and Madison over **Scott Plaid**?? **Scott** WINS over Washington and Madison in devestating blow to what they thought they knew. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/115 "2005-09-09T16:08:29Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I think you are reading a strawman, rather then what has actually been posted. What he has said was That is not a person forcing others to pray, but a request. I am not disputing that. However, what he \*\*is \*\* doing is say “Hey, you know what is nice? Prayer.” and that is what I have a problem with. Sure, it may not sound like such a big deal to you, but it is still endorsing prayer/religions invoving prayer, which is a big no-no. > > Get it? Endorsing prayer/religions involving prayer is not a big no-no. Making a law with respect to \*\*an \*\* establishment of religion is a no-no, but that’s not what’s going on here. You don’t want to pray? Great; don’t pray. Nobody’s forcing you to, and nobody will look down on you for not doing so. I’m a Christian, but I’m not going to stop everything and pray just because some halfwit politician suggested it might be a good idea; if praying is a good thing, then I’m probably already doing it. This is no more or less significant than National Pork Sausage day. One of the roles the President is supposed to play is to “set the tone” for the country - he’s our National Nanny-in-Chief, Cheerleader, Mourner and Celebrator, along with all the heavy lifting he’s supposed to be doing. Whether he intends praying or not, he knows (or his handlers do) that the majority of his constituents find value in it and consider it a social good, so he’s going to take some time from filling sandbags at the levees to make the suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/116 "2005-09-09T16:11:05Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > Endorsing prayer/religions involving prayer is not a big no-no. Making a law with respect to \*\*an \*\* establishment of religion is a no-no, but that’s not what’s going on here. > \ > One of the roles the President is supposed to play is to “set the tone” for the country - he’s our National Nanny-in-Chief, Cheerleader, Mourner and Celebrator, along with all the heavy lifting he’s supposed to be doing. I see a contradiction here. Oh, and I am not even going to touch the “he’s going to take some time from filling sandbags at the levees to make the suggestion.” line. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/117 "2005-09-09T16:19:35Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > You don’t want to pray? Great; don’t pray. Nobody’s forcing you to, and nobody will look down on you for not doing so. Oh, yes they will. You might not, and I appreciate that. But there are quite a few believers (of any religion) who look down on those of us with an absence of religion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/118 "2005-09-09T16:20:08Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, they know it and ignore it, kinda like Chaplins in Congress, the words “Under God” being added in the 50s and so on. **Scott** : You are aware that the SCOTUS has ruled that actions such as you describe do NOT violate the establishment clause, right? Since the SCOTUS has said it’s OK, how can presidents be said to “ignore it”? Are you saying that they should consult you rather than the SCOTUS as to what is and what is not permissable? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/119 "2005-09-09T16:23:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Are you saying that they should consult you rather than the SCOTUS as to what is and what is not permissable? Well, duh. Him and wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683/120 "2005-09-09T16:26:03Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Oh, yes they will. You might not, and I appreciate that. But there are quite a few believers (of any religion) who look down on those of us with an absence of religion. Yeah, I know you’re right. And I knew it even as I typed that post. But I keep hoping that, if I suggest it enough, some folks will listen. I still maintain, even as a member of a mainstream denomination, that the only thing wrong with Religion is The Religious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-day-of-prayer-and-rememberance/320683.md?page=7)