# National Driver's Licence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636 "2008-10-26T15:54:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/21 "2008-10-27T03:28:21Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The funny thing is that birth certificates are pretty worthless. They don’t have pictures (for obvious reasons) and anyone can request a copy, they are easy to forge, and have no uniform standards. Then what do you propose for ID requirements for a national driver’s license? What do you propose for proof of immigration status? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/22 "2008-10-27T03:37:39Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Then what do you propose for ID requirements for a national driver’s license? What do you propose for proof of immigration status? Going backwards is tough, but going forward I’d encode some biometric information into them. Same with birth certificates. We have pretty much the same process in place for registering births as we had in the 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/23 "2008-10-27T03:44:49Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Going backwards is tough, but going forward I’d encode some biometric information into them. Same with birth certificates. We have pretty much the same process in place for registering births as we had in the 18th century. Haven’t thought this through very well, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/24 "2008-10-27T03:45:20Z")
To provide a non-American perspective; the different Australian states all issue their own Driver’s Licences and ID cards and I’ve long thought that- since the road rules are pretty much identical throughout the entire country (They introduced Uniform National Road Rules back in 1999 or so) that it would be easier if there was just a simple Australian Driver’s Licence. They could be issued at State Level and administrated by the relevant Department of Transport; but would be otherwise the same across the country. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/25 "2008-10-27T03:49:27Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > To provide a non-American perspective; the different Australian states all issue their own Driver’s Licences and ID cards and I’ve long thought that- since the road rules are pretty much identical throughout the entire country (They introduced Uniform National Road Rules back in 1999 or so) that it would be easier if there was just a simple Australian Driver’s Licence. They could be issued at State Level and administrated by the relevant Department of Transport; but would be otherwise the same across the country. So in Australia do you have to deal with “states rights” advocates, gun enthusiasts, and the politically paranoid when you have these sort of discussions? Or can you just have pragmatic arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/26 "2008-10-27T04:05:16Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So in Australia do you have to deal with “states rights” advocates, gun enthusiasts, and the politically paranoid when you have these sort of discussions? Or can you just have pragmatic arguments. They’re generally pragmatic arguments; the States themselves like to try and maintain their own little fiefdoms but for all intents and purposes the only real difference between the States (IME) here in Australia is the appearance of Driver’s Licences, Registration Plates on cars and, to a lesser extent, the implementation of the firearms laws. And since there’s only 1 million licenced gun owners in the whole country the last one doesn’t really count for the most part; the gun laws are pretty much the same everywhere- it’s just minor things like how fast a Permit to Acquire can be issued that differ. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/27 "2008-10-27T04:23:31Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I did. You just said that driver’s licenses are used as ID and I am advocating that they be issued nationally. No. I posted that they are accepted as identifying as to who one is. What you’re advocating is they be issued nationally. To do so would require a consensus as to the laws regulating driving, penalties for violations, etc.. What you want is a national I.D. card. While I disagree with that, I admit there are valid arguments for it. But instead of opening a thread for that, you’d rather babble on about this horseshit. Have some dignity and close this thread and open one about national I.D.! ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/28 "2008-10-27T04:50:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > No. I posted that they are accepted as identifying as to who one is. > > What you’re advocating is they be issued nationally. To do so would require a consensus as to the laws regulating driving, penalties for violations, etc.. > > What you want is a national I.D. card. While I disagree with that, I admit there are valid arguments for it. But instead of opening a thread for that, you’d rather babble on about this horseshit. Have some dignity and close this thread and open one about national I.D.! So they are _accepted_ for ID, but they aren’t ID. Sure you want to defend that? The truth is that driver’s licenses are the most common form of identification. They are used not only in the state in which they are issued, but also in other states and for purposes like boarding airplanes which are adminsistered by the federal govt. Whether driving laws should be local, state or national is open to debate. Their certainly could be national licenses with a notation on whether the holder is licensed to drive in any state. The current system is a mess. We have 50 states plus DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. each with their own databases that we tie together with sticky tape and chewing gum. The means for showing you are eligible to work is a boolean nightmare of “One ID from Col A or two or more from Cols B and C”. It seems that we have made it as inconvenient as possible for the law abiding while making us no more secure. People working illegally is rampant and faith is being lost in voter registration. The only justification I can see for the current situation is to make work for bureaucrats. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/29 "2008-10-27T05:07:00Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > What you’re advocating is they be issued nationally. **To do so would require a consensus as to the laws regulating driving, penalties for violations, etc..** Why? I’m not defending the concept of a national DL, but I don’t see what the bolded portion has to do with this. If I have a Montana license, but am driving in Kansas, it’s the laws in Kansas I have to answer to. They could give a flying fuck if I can drive 100 mph in Montana, or if speeding in Montana carries a $1.50 fine. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/30 "2008-10-27T05:25:59Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The current system is a mess. We have 50 states plus DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. each with their own databases that we tie together with sticky tape and chewing gum. You never heard of The National Drivers Registry (which I oppose, by the way. But that’s for another thread which I’ll start if I want to debate the specifics which is the proper thing to do when one is arguing one subject but lists it under another!). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/31 "2008-10-27T05:29:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You never heard of The National Drivers Registry (which I oppose, by the way. But that’s for another thread which I’ll start if I want to debate the specifics which is the proper thing to do when one is arguing one subject but lists it under another!). So Dude, no one is forcing (or even asking) you to participate in this debate. Oh and BTW, the NDR is what I meant by tieing the dtabases together. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/32 "2008-10-27T05:32:35Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Why? I’m not defending the concept of a national DL, but I don’t see what the bolded portion has to do with this. If I have a Montana license, but am driving in Kansas, it’s the laws in Kansas I have to answer to. They could give a flying fuck if I can drive 100 mph in Montana, or if speeding in Montana carries a $1.50 fine. I just realized I have no idea how things work now. If I am convicted of drunk driving in Kansa with a Montana DL does my Montana DL get pulled? Hpw does that work? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/33 "2008-10-27T05:39:46Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I have no idea how things work now. That’s the first thing right you’ve said all night!!! ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/34 "2008-10-27T05:41:23Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So in Australia do you have to deal with “states rights” advocates, gun enthusiasts, and the politically paranoid when you have these sort of discussions? There is always a question as to whether the Commonwealth has the constitutional power to legislate in a given area. In this case (licensing of drivers), the Constitution does not give power to the Commonwealth. Licensing of drivers therefore remains the preserve of the state governments. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/35 "2008-10-27T05:52:52Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I just realized I have no idea how things work now. If I am convicted of drunk driving in Kansa with a Montana DL does my Montana DL get pulled? Hpw does that work? At least in some states, they will indeed take your license. Some of them then send it to your state of residence, with an explanation as to why it was seized. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/36 "2008-10-27T05:54:09Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > That’s the first thing right you’ve said all night!!! You still haven’t explained why your particular concerns noted above would be valid in any way. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/37 "2008-10-27T08:30:43Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > At least in some states, they will indeed take your license. Some of them then send it to your state of residence, with an explanation as to why it was seized. Intersting. Here is what the Oregon DMV website says: > [@](#): > > If an Oregonian goes out of state, or even to Canada, and commits an offense that would merit a suspension or revocation back home, guess what? Yep, as soon as the DMV hears about it, their Oregon driver license could be history. Even out of state or Canadian residents are not beyond the long arm of the Oregon DMV. If they commit a “suspendable” offense, to coin a phrase, they could lose their driving privileges, in this state anyway, even if they retain their out-of-state license. So we already have a system in place in which a state can rescind driving priveleges in their state for a DL issued by a different governmental body. So, for example, Oregon can suspend driving priveleges in their state for a driver whose DL is issued by Canada. Clearly the same could be done for a DL issued by the US govt. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/38 "2008-10-27T08:50:09Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > To provide a non-American perspective; the different Australian states all issue their own Driver’s Licences and ID cards and I’ve long thought that- since the road rules are pretty much identical throughout the entire country (They introduced Uniform National Road Rules back in 1999 or so) that it would be easier if there was just a simple Australian Driver’s Licence. They could be issued at State Level and administrated by the relevant Department of Transport; but would be otherwise the same across the country. Minor point of order, m’lud. Australian heavy vehicle licences (the old “Class 3” and up) have been federal for a few years now. Like you say, they are issued by the state authorities just the same as for a car licence - same clerk, same forms, same queue in the same building. The only difference to the licence holder is that it says “Driver’s Licence, Australia” instead of “Driver’s Licence, New South Wales [etc], Australia”, in the coloured band across the top. And that’s it. Industrial “tickets” are going national too. I used to hold a New South Wales forklift ticket. Now it’s an Australian one. Even for car drivers with strictly state-based licences, don’t think you can escape fines or disqualification by crossing state borders. They catch up with you these days, and the interstate police can deal with it easily. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/39 "2008-10-27T11:54:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > There are valid arguments for a national I.D. card, but you aren’t making them. If you wish to debate that there should be no state government and everything should be decided at the local or national level, fine, but then start a separate thread on that then. Strawman, nobody is advocating getting rid of state government. A drivers licence allows the bearer to operate a motor vehicle in any state, and in other countries via a reciprocal agreement with those countries. This is not the sort of item that screams “local issue” to me. Of course, we’re so far down the road of having individual rules for each state, and have spent so much effort cobbling together a workable solution, that changing now would likely be a disaster. In addition, the fact that SSNs are so often used for identification, when they are clearly not intended or well suited for ID, suggests that we need some sort of universal, nationally accepted ID. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636/40 "2008-10-27T12:05:25Z")
If nothing else, having the appearance of the license be the same across all 50 states would probably be a good idea. It wouldn’t affect the laws, and would keep the people who have to check these things from having to be able to recognize 50 variations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-drivers-licence/469636.md?page=3)