# National Fraternal Order of Police endorses Trump - Mask isn't just slipping it's being thrown away **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 17, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176 "2016-09-17T17:47:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/61 "2016-09-19T18:10:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And yet Clinton didn’t do this. > > Look, there are good unions and bad unions. FOP is one of the worst unions out there. For all the grief AFT and NEA get, they don’t waste time defending members who harm those in their care. They don’t spend time threatening people who speak out against them. FOP is terrible, and police ought to disassociate themselves from this group. Unions exist to look out for the interests of their members as the majority of members perceive them, which is what FOP and teachers’ unions both do. Teachers unions ‘waste’ plenty of time defending people employers have concluded are bad teachers, in the trenches every day. But the police killing people is an inherently more sensitive topic than whether so and so is a crappy (non abusive, non criminal) teacher, hard to compare apples to apples. And you refer to a ‘group’ but the issue is who is a member of that group, and the union is there in part to make others clearly prove a particular member is part of that ‘group’. Look at the incident which so greatly raised the profile of police violence, the Michael Brown shooting. It was eventually unclear if that cop acted wrongly at all. The discussion of that incident eventually tended to deflect to ‘the larger issue’, along with new cases where a cop was more clearly in the wrong. But there are two legitimate sides, and multiple facets, to the debate about how much the ‘larger issue’ is due to rank and file police behavior, higher level law enforcement policy (not the union’s domain) and factors outside police control. I don’t personally believe there should be public employee unions, private sector unions are fine IMO if not allowed to collude in restraint of competition (a committee of Ford and GM management isn’t allowed to set car prices, nor a cartel of steel producer allowed to set their input steel price, so neither should a single UAW be allowed to set their price of labor). So, don’t take the above as a strong endorsement of the police unions. And as somebody noted above, pro-police voices, their unions or not, have at times been guilty of trying to shut down the argument about police practices by saying it’s ‘anti-police’. OTOH a lot of activist groups and rank and filers on the left are in the bad habit of trying to shut down all sorts of discussions by crying ‘racism’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/62 "2016-09-19T18:22:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “I was _going_ to vote for whom I considered to be the better/saner candidate, but since you insulted me/us I/we are going to vote for El Stupido!” > Does anyone with an I.Q. over 65 really believe that to be a valid claim, or is it just a tired excuse? Well they didn’t endorse ANYONE during the last presidential election. If Trump is driving people out of the Republican tent, Hillary isn’t giving them anywhere else to go but right back to that tent. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/63 "2016-09-19T18:25:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That is the reason why many cops have no business being cops. Or why we should require cops to go through weekly therapy sessions, or something. hell I don’t know what the answer is but anecdotally, I have seen reasonably decent guys turn into tin star assholes after dealing with the worst society has to offer for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/64 "2016-09-19T18:37:38Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > And you refer to a ‘group’ but the issue is who is a member of that group,… To clarify, as I misunderstood your specific words there: I guess you meant FOP when saying ‘group’. But what I mean is that any union is there in part to make sure others prove a particular member is ‘[unjustifiably] harming those in their care’. And in notable cases that accusation has been slung but later appeared questionable at best (Michael Brown case). And even where police was more clearly questionable (say Freddie Brown case) it’s not hard to understand IMO why police would want an organization with their back given how the Baltimore/MD authorities acted in carrying forward weak prosecutions under political pressure. A suspect should never have died in the latter circumstances, but criminal wrongdoing is a higher bar. I’ve never been a cop or related to any (firemen among NY Irish in my family tree 🙂 ) and don’t consider myself especially pro-cop. But I can understand why most cops probably don’t agree with you about FOP, and it’s no mark against them that they don’t. There’s wrong done by cops obviously but also sacrificial lamb seeking among cops in the BLM era. That might be ‘for the greater eventual good’ at a safe distance, but nobody wants to be one of said lambs. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/65 "2016-09-19T19:11:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Overplays? You think? Sure assume everyone who supports Trump is a racist. That’s a good way to lose an election. Not everyone but a good number do believe in White supremacy. [cite](https://thinkprogress.org/is-hillary-clinton-right-about-trump-supporters-this-is-what-the-polling-data-says-2b37625a1df3#.31dc33y9b) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/66 "2016-09-19T19:18:20Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Not everyone but a good number do believe in White supremacy. [cite](https://thinkprogress.org/is-hillary-clinton-right-about-trump-supporters-this-is-what-the-polling-data-says-2b37625a1df3#.31dc33y9b) At the risk of Godwinizing… not every German in the 1930’s was a Nazi. Sometimes, it’s enough to just stand there and do/say nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/67 "2016-09-19T19:22:19Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Clinton has made anti-police statements. By my count, you’ve been asked for a cite for these statements by at least 3 people. Being that you are a cop, I’m very curious to see your cites. Do you have any? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/68 "2016-09-19T19:26:44Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Unions exist to look out for the interests of their members as the majority of members perceive them, which is what FOP and teachers’ unions both do. > > Teachers unions ‘waste’ plenty of time defending people employers have concluded are bad teachers, in the trenches every day. But the police killing people is an inherently more sensitive topic than whether so and so is a crappy (non abusive, non criminal) teacher, hard to compare apples to apples. So let’s compare apples to apples. Sometimes cops are accused of abuse. Sometimes teachers are accused of abuse. Which union spends more time **publicly** defending those members accused of abuse? But let’s go further: which union issues threats more? Police unions have made it a pretty regular tactic to refuse to work events that feature people critical of police. Imagine if teachers’ unions encouraged a work-to-order approach with the children of critics of public education. There are good unions and bad unions. FOP is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/69 "2016-09-19T19:27:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or why we should require cops to go through weekly therapy sessions, or something. hell I don’t know what the answer is but anecdotally, I have seen reasonably decent guys turn into tin star assholes after dealing with the worst society has to offer for a few years. That is a great idea. Seriously. Everybody pays lip service to supporting the police. Would be nice to actually do it. It would: 1. help cops avoid becoming cynical and deal with developing confirmation bias. 2. identify problem cops. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/70 "2016-09-19T19:35:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That is a great idea. Seriously. Everybody pays lip service to supporting the police. Would be nice to actually do it. > It would: > > 1. help cops avoid becoming cynical and deal with developing confirmation bias. > 2. identify problem cops. I agree. It should be a paid part of their current weekly schedule, not an add-on on top of it. That might mean additions to each particular force (to ensure the same number of hours of policing), meaning an increase to the budget–but I bet that after a year, most municipalities would find that policing costs had _dropped_, due to fewer lawsuits and such. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/71 "2016-09-19T19:41:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At the risk of Godwinizing… not every German in the 1930’s was a Nazi. True, but not supporting the Nazis was hazardous to one’s health. That’s significantly different from one group of supporters voluntarily claiming to be racists in larger numbers than any other supporters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/72 "2016-09-19T19:49:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …Sometimes, it’s enough to just stand there and do/say nothing. Always. Hitler didn’t turn a civilized and sane people into monsters at a stroke, he did it with a thousand little compromises. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/73 "2016-09-19T20:18:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So let’s compare apples to apples. > > Sometimes cops are accused of abuse. > > Sometimes teachers are accused of abuse. > > Which union spends more time **publicly** defending those members accused of abuse? > > But let’s go further: which union issues threats more? Police unions have made it a pretty regular tactic to refuse to work events that feature people critical of police. Imagine if teachers’ unions encouraged a work-to-order approach with the children of critics of public education. > > There are good unions and bad unions. FOP is the worst. No it isn’t apples and apples in very simple terms. Teachers are essentially never involved in justified killings. Police often are, not particular police officers but cumulatively nationwide. Killing suspects, even when it’s justified, is highly emotional at least for those closely involved and also especially lately highly charged and divisive politically on a much broader level. Teachers’ unions simply don’t find themselves in cases like Darren Wilson, where it became a cause celebre that that police officer killed Michael Brown, and who was widely accused of ‘execution style murder’, but it doesn’t appear he actually acted wrongly once all the facts were known, murky at the very least. The NEA is very much less likely to face cases where its members _justifiably_ kill members of the public, by the very nature of the two jobs. And as to your last claim, same problem. Besides doubt about ‘a regular tactic of refusing to work events featuring people critical of the police’ again the role of teachers means there just isn’t a direct analog. Teachers unions use all kinds of methods and pressure at their disposal to advance of the interests of their members as most of the members see it. It’s inherently the same for any union. I still don’t see any logic in deeming the FOP ‘bad’ in comparison to unions in a completely different situation by the nature of the job of their members. If you were to contrast various police orgs with different opinions about the BLM constellation of issues, I think you’d be on potentially firmer ground. Comparing police and teachers you can only reasonably say IMO you find the perceived self interest of most police less valid than the perceived self interest of most teachers, under the safe assumption their unions or ‘fraternal orgs’ will reflect member perception. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/74 "2016-09-19T20:23:16Z")
> [@Yogurt](#): > > FWIW, the Clinton Campaign failed to fill out the form provided by the FOP in order to be considered for their endorsement. I don’t \*want \*FOP, goddammit! I’m a DAPPER DAN man! ---
**Author:** ![Dains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dains)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/75 "2016-09-20T04:56:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At the risk of Godwinizing… not every German in the 1930’s was a Nazi. > > Sometimes, it’s enough to just stand there and do/say nothing. Per Erich Hartmann (WWII top ace, also history’s top ace to date) one of his commanders would tell new pilots that if they wanted to walk the Nazi Party line, they needed to go join the Waffen SS or something. That kind of thing was not welcome in their air group. They were fighting for their country as soldiers, and that was it. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/76 "2016-09-20T13:05:15Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > So in one fell swoop you’ve lumped the Police, and everyone who supports them, in with White Power groups. I’m sure radical feminist groups overwhelmingly support Hillary too. Absolutely meaningless (unless you like shooting fish in a barrel). > > I’m not thinking again. Police deal with criminals. The police are overwhelmingly decent, hardworking, underpaid, public servants and criminals are overwhelmingly lowlife scum who deserve everything that happens to them. Regardless of what color they are (in both cases)… Well, there WAS at least ONE decent officer. [Cop fired for not murdering suicidal man](https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/09/12/west-virginia-cop-fired-for-not-killing-suicidal-man/). Yeah, they’re the bee’s knees, those cops. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/77 "2016-09-20T15:58:48Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Wait, are you equating feminism with white supremacy? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think he’s saying that feminism is the opposite of white supremacism. No, what I’m saying is that both are radical, fringe groups and just because they endorse a candidate based on their (not the candidate’s) radical fringe beliefs it is not indicative of that candidate’s grassroots supporters in general. Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/78 "2016-09-20T16:01:32Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that both are radical, fringe groups and just because they endorse a candidate based on their (not the candidate’s) radical fringe beliefs it is not indicative of that candidate’s grassroots supporters in general. Not at all. Feminism isn’t a “radical, fringe group”. For one thing, Hillary Clinton says she’s a feminist, and has never tried to deny it or avoid association with other prominent feminists. Trump has repeated and re-tweeted white supremacist rhetoric multiple times, but he’s usually (and tepidly) tried to avoid associating with open white supremacists. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/79 "2016-09-20T16:15:55Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that both are radical, fringe groups and just because they endorse a candidate based on their (not the candidate’s) radical fringe beliefs it is not indicative of that candidate’s grassroots supporters in general. Not at all. [A national survey](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/feminism-project/poll/) by the Washington Post and Kaiser Family Foundation finds 6 in 10 women and one-third of men call themselves a feminist or strong feminist, with roughly 7 in 10 of each saying the movement is empowering. Hardly seems fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176/80 "2016-09-20T17:10:30Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that both are radical, fringe groups and just because they endorse a candidate based on their (not the candidate’s) radical fringe beliefs it is not indicative of that candidate’s grassroots supporters in general. Not at all. Yeah, what **iiandyiiii** and **EvilEconomist** said. People who think feminists are fringe radicals are the reason feminism exists (and the reason it needs to exist). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-fraternal-order-of-police-endorses-trump-mask-isnt-just-slipping-its-being-thrown-away/766176.md?page=5)